Why are there so few female pipers ?

[Uilliam]

hy gang i am typin this frae ma hospital bed.admittedto monklands hosp as emergency last wed wi acute cellulitis,just discovered dis computor link above ma bed on d telly.good posts frae bill = emily laffed oot loudwen i read rorys comment on neanderthalls.nursehad 2put the dripbak in asitfell oot.i shouldbe hame sometime this week andbe back 2normalinafew weeks . heike horstman can mke and play full sets better than a lotof makers i hav seen (not u bill )anyways dats all i can manage 4 noo.
lervandpeace 2 yeall.
uilliam

[rorybbellows]

Jayus Uilliam get well soon and all that. I asked the wife what cellulitis is and she said its when you have too much fat on your legs and she works in a hospital!!
Have the nurse's given you a sponge bath yet ?

All the best
RORY

[Uilliam]

tanks rory glad im not being treated in yoor wifes feckin hospital.cellulitis isa bacterial infection of the lymph glands and can lead 2 septasemia.i am on d mend i have had it 4 weeks and thought itwas just old age pains.dr said if left another 24hrs i wouldna havseen old age hohum.
uilliam

[Ceann Cromtha]

Women do tend to not like a lot of bass either.

I find that statement contrary to my personal experience with regard to sound preferences, namely, ever since high school I've noticed that females generally prefer a higher bass-to-treble ratio setting on their car sound systems and males tend to prefer a higher treble-to-bass ratio. Maybe this is due to the following interrelationship:

(1) sexual dimorphism: males tend to have a lower pitched voice because they tend to be bigger (and have a larger supralaryngeal vocal tract producing a lower fundamental frequency in their speech) and, inversely, women tend to have a higher pitched voice because they are smaller (and have a smaller supralaryngeal vocal tract producing a higher fundamental frequency in their speech); and

(2) (heterosexual) men and women are attracted to the opposite sex and find many features of the opposite sex attractive (e.g., women associate lower frequencies with men and men associate higher frequencies with women).

That's a funny observation. What's funny is that you present it in a way that presumes your evidence supports your conclusion.

I thought this thread was generated for humor's sake and that's really just anecdotal information from my personal experience that I threw for the heck of it (um, you know, for the fun of it...). It is true, however, and I have often wondered about why it is. This is the sort of thing I'd maybe bring up at a coffee shop, not the sort of topic I'd be willing to pursue scientific research to prove.

Attack me on this one, too, if you like: In the same age range with the above anecdote (say between 15 and 25) I always noticed that females were much better at discerning lyrics to songs than males. I knew a guy that thought that Pat Benatar's big hit "Hit Me with Your Best Shot" was "Hit Me with Affection", another thought the Blues Brothers' hit "I'm a Soul Man" (a Sam and Dave cover) was "I Was So Mad", another thought Men At Work's song "It's Our Mistake" was "Midsummer's Day"... Later, I embarked on a career in linguistics and have had a son and a daughter and my personal experience in foreign language acquisition (in the former) and first language acquisition (in the latter) make me think that women are much better at language-related affairs than men (e.g., my 2.5-year-old daughter's abilities in English rival that of my 6-year-old son). Finally, I once heard a priest say that sin enters a man through the eyes and enters a woman through the ears. I didn't give it much thought at the time but later noticed that male ρσяиσפядρђψ (this is the way they spell it in hell) is almost always pictoral (e.g., glossy mags) while female ρσяиσפядρђψ (again, using the Devil's cipher) is almost always literal (e.g., trashy novels). (Maybe their linguistic real estate in their cerebral cortex?)

So, through anecdotal evidence and personal experience I am led to believe that females are better at language affairs than males, but I don't necessarily believe it. And please don't ask me to support all this scientifically. I hope that all will be revealed in the life to come, Amen.

With regard to pitch, has their been any studies to quantify the amount of undergarments tossed onto a male piper from females in the audience vis-a-vis his playing a concert pitched set vs. a flat pitched set?

Oh, wait a second, let me add one of these (I almost forgot!):

[highland-piper]

The point in contention is whether or not women or girls prefer some comfortable mid-range-trebly instrument over a screamingly high treble instrument,

That's demonstratively false. The violin is the epitome of a "screamingly high treble instrument."
But in most orchestras you'll see more women playing violin than men. The cello and viola sections are more typically men (but I've seen even very-small handed women play excellent cello).

[Ceann Cromtha]

The violin is the epitome of a "screamingly high treble instrument."

The Russians call it a скрипка (skreepka), onomatopoeic for the sound it makes. Ouch.

[Cathy Wilde]

Oh Liam, I'm sorry to hear about that! Cellulitis is indeed not to be messed with. Your poor thing; I'm glad you made it.

[Steampacket]

Just a few minutes searching reveals many female uilleann pipers, so this thread title isn't relevant these days.

Catherine Ashcroft, young Traveller? piper, Kirkby Stephen, Cumbria
http://www.flickr.com/photos/allybeag/2 ... 491161425/
Maria McMahon, of Castlebar, Co. Mayo
Sorcha Ní Mhuiré, piper, fiddler
Mary Mitchell in Cork
Vivienne Murphy, Hilltown, Co. Down,
Ann Sexton, piper, fiddler, box, Co Clare
Sheila Shigley, Canada
Maria McMahon
Eibhlis O Brien, Miltown Malbay, Co. Clare
Sinéad Ní Aragáin, Dublin?
Grace Lemon, Cambridge, England
Kelly Hood, Toronto
Janice Crewe, Toronto
Margaret Stalker, Guelph, Canada
Lucy Delap, piper, fiddler, Cambridge
Fiona Docherty, Charlestown, Mayo
Catherine Burke, southern England
Sinead Lennon, Armagh?
Claire Byrne, Armagh?
Betty Nevin, Dublin, pupil of Leo Rowsome late 1950's- early 1960's?
Kara Doyle, Albany, New York
Lucinda Cook, Dingle?
Vicky Swan, England?

The above 23 names mostly from a couple of issues of An Piobaire and a session.org thread from 2007
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/d ... 0/comments

[Cathy Wilde]

Am I just weird because that sort of thing doesn't bother me one way or another?

I don't think so (or like K said, then hey, I'm weird, too -- and I'll consider myself lucky to be in such good company!).

BUT I WONDER if you might have put your finger on something in the "that sort of thing doesn't bother me" department? D'you think not being bothered might be more common in men?

When I think of the women and men I know, it's the women who worry more about what people think, hands down. And piping is sort of a specialty item ...

OK, I'll go away now.

cat.

P.S. And Anita, thanks so much for your post. You got across what I couldn't seem to say -- in such a nice clean way, too.

[Black Rose]

Just a couple more and then I'll stop trying to negotate reality with people who've obviously just decided what the answer is and isn't going to let facts get in the way.

1 The violin is a very quiet little instrument that only sounds annoyingly scratchy when played wrong. If you think it is the "epitome" of a loud, trebly screaming instrument, I'm just not sure what world you live in. The violin is a very sweet and pleasant instrument that can be barely audible unless you really lay into it, and then it just gets fatter and more resonant from the body and actually far less screeetchy and more mellow. Played correctly that is. And I'd add that there isn't a single instrument in the "orchestra" that in real terms is particularly "loud" or "screetchy" because a couple of thousand years of engineering and refining has deliberately taken all the "loud" and "screaming trebly" characteristics out of every single instrument that has made the modern cut. Again, I don't know what world you live in when you go to the modern symphony orchestra for examples of sounds that would hurt the ears in any way. And perhaps that's why so many of you think the uilleann pipes are so deafening they must be played with earplugs.

2 The ratio of female Irish dancers to male Irish dancers is probably hundreds to one. Has nothing to do with the ears and there's no cultural bias involved, in fact Irish male dancers are highly rewarded culturally, and of course sexually and socially. There is nothing but motivation for males to get into the artform, but again, there is a very high ratio of female to male dancers in all the schools I've seen. That's about twenty or more by the way. Now go argue that one. Why are there so many women Irish dancers? Or more conversely, why are there so few male Irish dancers?

And I apologise to many of you because apparently this whole thread was just meant to be idle goofing and I took it seriously.

[highland-piper]

1 The violin is a very quiet little instrument that only sounds annoyingly scratchy when played wrong. If you think it is the "epitome" of a loud, trebly screaming instrument, I'm just not sure what world you live in.

I live in the world of an orchestral violinist. She tolerates my nosing in and observing occasionally, to see what it's all about.

I saw something in an Australian magazine once, but I haven't verified it for myself. I plan to someday, as I have the equipment and the necessary musicians. The statement was made that, measured at the players ear, the violin was as loud as a set of highland pipes.

Now it's true that from any third party listener's point of view the bagpipes are way louder, but from the standpoint of deciding what instrument to play, and whether to continue playing it, what matters most is how it sounds to the player. One way or another, my wife has gone to wearing earplugs when she practices, and I notice her hearing is better in the time after (used to be that whenever she got into practicing she couldn't hear half of what I said, as I tend to speak softly, but now with the earplugs this isn't a problem any longer.)

Regarding the trebly component. Simple fact: the violin plays higher notes than any other instrument.

Years ago I was talking with a guy who makes, sells, and services violins. He was telling me about how often violinists came in and wanted him to suggest strings or other things that would make their instrument "darker" or less trebly. He thought it was comical, and that these people should simply play viola, because (in his words) the violin is supposed to be a high-pitched, piercing instrument. That's it's whole point. There are other, different stringed instruments that have other roles, like the viola, which is a lower pitch, mellow instrument.

[No E]

I know I'm going to regret this, but here goes...

My answer to the original question is "Who cares?" I don't know of any (current) statutory prohibition on women playing the pipes, or of any coordinated effort to discourage women from playing the pipes. Why an INDIVIDUAL of any configuration chooses to play or not to play the pipes is their own business, and in my experience, the piping community has been welcoming and supportive to anyone making a sincere effort.

No E

[Jill Groth]

Good answer, Larry.

[Black Rose]

I know I'm going to regret this, but here goes...

My answer to the original question is "Who cares?" I don't know of any (current) statutory prohibition on women playing the pipes, or of any coordinated effort to discourage women from playing the pipes. Why an INDIVIDUAL of any configuration chooses to play or not to play the pipes is their own business, and in my experience, the piping community has been welcoming and supportive to anyone making a sincere effort.

No E

The real question brothers and sisters, is that the sheer weight of statistics prove beyond any doubt that there is in fact a heavy, institutionalized social prejudice against female pipers that has to be addressed by liberative legislation so that it can be assigned to enforcement agencies to correct this inequity.

[Black Rose]

1 The violin is a very quiet little instrument that only sounds annoyingly scratchy when played wrong. If you think it is the "epitome" of a loud, trebly screaming instrument, I'm just not sure what world you live in.

I live in the world of an orchestral violinist. She tolerates my nosing in and observing occasionally, to see what it's all about.
...
Regarding the trebly component. Simple fact: the violin plays higher notes than any other instrument.

Years ago I was talking with a guy who makes, sells, and services violins. He was telling me about how often violinists came in and wanted him to suggest strings or other things that would make their instrument "darker" or less trebly. He thought it was comical, and that these people should simply play viola, because (in his words) the violin is supposed to be a high-pitched, piercing instrument. That's it's whole point. There are other, different stringed instruments that have other roles, like the viola, which is a lower pitch, mellow instrument.

Yes, I suspected it might be a PBS argument. Apparently you can detect higher and lower, and louder and softer, but you cannot pinpoint specific fequencies or tonal qualities or harmonic components whatsoever. Again, you cite the authority of a guy who knows violins to restate your own opinion that they are loud and high pitched. The point isn't high or loud even. The point is painfully loud and specifically annoying high pitch frequencies, which again, you obviously aren't capable of differentiating if you still think you can compare say, Highland pipes with a fiddle, or an overdriven stack or Marshalls with a violin or flute. It's probably going to remain a mystery to you because you are isolated by your own perspective in the first place. Show this post to your significant other with the violin and see if at least some of it doesn't ring true.

I don't have the energy to go into the OSHA hearing loss bit but all those scales used to measure what offends or doesn't offend the human ear are weighted scales and you'd have to understand the whole spectrum of tones in any given sound to understand what loud really is or what high really means. If all you're working with is some guy told you violins are high and loud I can't be of any help. Orchestral types are always a bit sensitive about trying to imbue far more testosterone into their essentially castrated instruments than they inherently manifest on the stage. They're the "Orch Dorks" like my youngest daughter who never got to blow a tuba or bang a big bass drum and march parades with the brass band in high school or play with the pipe band on the street.

As politely as it can be put, again, if your frame of reference is a modern orchestra, you have no serious conception of what high or loud is. The orchestra is a collection of neutered instruments that have had all the offensive overtones and all the brilliant loudness physically removed from them for hundreds of years. They are the tamest, most domesticated instruments in the known universe and they did it on purpose and are proud of it. They require it. Adolphe Sax never made the club because his Saxophone had too much pizzaz, even though he designed it for the orchestra--not the marching band and not the jazz combo or rock quartette. Certainly not the Big Band, where it was the featured instrument. The orchestra rejected the Saxophone. Get it? And the Sax doesn't even approach the pipes for annoying overtones and volume, well, maybe volume.

I'm not trying to be patronizing. It's a gift from God that shines forth without trying. I really can't see how you could not understand the basic tonality of a symphony orchestra and the history of its instrumental makeup, you being so closely involved. Yeah, relative to themselves they all laugh and poke fun of the English horn for being out of tune and raucus, but to a piper this is a joke. The English horn is a lapdog pipe. They flatter themselves. The violin isn't even a fiddle. A fiddle is a badly setup and badly played violin in their estimation exactly because it is scratchy and rough and high pitchy. And again, they reject a fiddle as being loud and untamed, and in turn, fiddlers whine about pipers covering them up and being squawky and out of tune. It's not a slender ditch between the two worlds--the musical environment of a piper and that of a symphony player. (Unless you're bloody Paddy Moloney I guess.) It's a huge wide chasm and if you can't hear the difference or intellectually even decode my attempted message I'll just close by saying I love you and appreciate you as a fellow human being.

It's not an apples-and-oranges argument I'm trying to make here. It's apples-and-coelacanths.

I think the solution you're looking for is to create a Department of Instrumental Equality, make it part of the Affirmative Action legislation, and both pay women to take up pipes, while at the same time restricting males from taking them up. Seems that would even it out for you. I mean, the Achems Razor notion that women just don't seem to like pipes isn't going to convince you with or without an acoustical line of reasoning to back it up.

But I have a known personality problem that goes immediately to sarcasm when trying to provide answers to people who ask questions and then refuse to listen to answers apart from the ones they obviously had in mind anyway. I think you already have your own ideas and I'm just getting in your way here. If I've been impatient with you I apologize from the heart of my bottom. I mean bottom of my heart. It's all just a bit of fun anyway eh? There that's better.