Generations - What's the problem?

[peeplj]

But yeah, a really good Gen is kinda nice. It's no Overton, though, and it's no Burke.

Quite correct,-but the good old Gen has a TRADITIONAL sound.
-Stray too far off the beaten track and then one day no one will remember what a traditional whistle sounded like.
There is a place for both;-the good old trad and new innovations.
Let's keep them both.

Hmmm...let me ask you a question, here:

Do you think there were whistles before there were plastic fipples?

Hmmm...yet another question...

Do you think Generation whistles made today sound the same as the very old all-metal whistles with lead fipples?

Hmmm....that leads to yet another question...

Do you think those old all-metal Gens were the first whistles played in Irish music?

--James

[Wanderer]

Nice use of the Socratic method there James!

[emtor]

Hmmm...let me ask you a question, here:

Do you think there were whistles before there were plastic fipples?

Hmmm...yet another question...

Do you think Generation whistles made today sound the same as the very old all-metal whistles with lead fipples?

Hmmm....that leads to yet another question...

Do you think those old all-metal Gens were the first whistles played in Irish music?

Do you think there were guitars before Fender? -Of course,-but the Fender guitars did set the standard for what people expect an electric guitar to sound. What would blues be without Fender Guitars and Fender amps? And what would the Beatles be without Vox AC30?
When Paddy Moloney, Mary Bergin and Brid O'Donohue play Gens with plastic fipples, they pretty much set a standard in many cases for what people expect the whistle to sound, and such things tend to set standards.

[gallant_murray]

If you want to fly, get a Generation. If you want to fly amongst the stars, get an Overton, O’Riordan, Copeland, Burke…

You mean stars like Mary Bergin and Micho Russel? Because I enjoy they're music more than, say, Joannie Madden. But according to your argument, they played kids toys not intended for professional music and Joannie plays a real instrument. I think rather that some of us enjoy the old sound of Gens and Clarkes and some of us just don't. It doesn't mean that some people prefer toys and some people prefer real instruments.

[peeplj]

It sounds to me like your traditional sound is more in the whistler than in the whistle.

Mary Bergin has recorded with O'Riordan whistles as well as with Gens. Does she stop sounding traditional when she puts down the Gen?

Paddy Moloney sometimes plays Burkes, or so I've read.

I think the tradition is big enough to hold many different sounds. Apparently, some pretty decent whistle players agree.

--James

[Wanderer]

It is reported that in an interview in 2002, Mary Bergin stated:
"I’m playing a mixture of John Sindt’s whistles, Pat O’Riordans, and I have a Michael Copeland low A, and sometimes I revert to the old Generation. "

http://chiffboard.mati.ca/viewtopic.php?p=538477#538477

It's a bit of a stretch these days to say "Mary Bergin plays Generations", as if that's what she primarily plays.

[emtor]

Does she stop sounding traditional when she puts down the Gen?

Surely not,-but I was talking about a general perception of what is considered traditional. I would guess that Generation whistles with plastic fipples have managed to set some sort of standard that not many other whistles have. When I started to play the whistle I purchased a Clarke original C. I was dissappointed because it didn't sound like what I was used to that a whistle should sound by listening to recordings mainly of the Chieftains.
The Chieftains BTW has managed to set a standard too, since here at least they're the only Irish band people who are not into ITM have heard about.

[emtor]

It's a bit of a stretch these days to say "Mary Bergin plays Generations", as if that's what she primarily plays.

That is your interpretation of what I meant. -I said she plays Gens,-NOT that Gens are the only whistles she plays.
I have actually picked up the fact that she plays other whistles too by reading the cover on her first album.

[Azalin]

Darn, it's 2007, and this thread looks like your old Cheapo vs Expensive whistles threads. At the end of such discussions, names start flying. McGoldrick is playing this, Mary Bergin is playing that, Talbert St-Claire is... Hu anyway, things haven't changed

[Wanderer]

That is your interpretation of what I meant. -I said she plays Gens,-NOT that Gens are the only whistles she plays.
I have actually picked up the fact that she plays other whistles too by reading the cover on her first album.

I actually wasn't speaking to your statement directly. But I get the impression many people think that she plays Generations primarily, when I don't think that's the case any more. Whenever the high-end vs. Gen debate comes about, her name invariably also comes up. So, I was just hoping to put some perspective on the issue.

[emtor]

So, I was just hoping to put some perspective on the issue.

And so you did in a good manner,-and it's quite true that she plays a variety of whistles other than Gens.

[Cayden]

It's a bit of a stretch these days to say "Mary Bergin plays Generations", as if that's what she primarily plays.

whenever I see her playing for her own amusement though...

[Kelhorn Mike]

A little historical perspective now. Thirty years ago there were very few
if any high end handmade whistles available at all. NO LOW WHISTLES
PERIOD! So the older players had no choice at that time and played what people now consider a "traditional sounding" whistle (Plastic fipple with
metal body) Generation, Oak, Walton's, Feadog, etc. or the original
Clark style whistle with it's features. A little personal antidote here.
Back in the early eighties my Father George says "we can make
something affordable" of a better quality than what's on the market now
and a respectable number of people will like it and buy it and thus was
born the first generation of Susato Whistles. After a few years we
discontinued production due to not being able to streamline the
production enough to make a whistle at a reasonable price and still
make an acceptable profit. That all changed in the '94 with better
technologies when we started producing the second generation of
Susato Whistles still available today and though the production technology has steadily improved over the past 12 years the
basic design is the same. Many argue they don't like Susato's
and the sound is to recorderish or not traditional enough and that's
okay but the point is we made something very different and we
have been I believe successful in helping change some tastes
and perceptions. We say a Susato Whistle is a whistle and sounds
like a whistle and maybe, just maybe sounds more like a real whistle
than a Generation, Clark, Oak, etc. Ask Peter how many are played
in Ireland whether or not half or more of the folks don't like them.
I lot of folks there do. You guys are welcome to debate all this
until the cows come home and negative comments won't offend
me at all. I've grown a thick skin. Thanks for letting me share
my thoughts.

Kelhorn Mike
Susato Whistles - made for over 20 years
Kelischek Workshop - in business for 52 years now

P.S. That's for your Dale.......javascript:emoticon('')

[emtor]

whenever I see her playing for her own amusement though

hehehe

[Jerry Freeman]

I think the idea of what's truly traditional sounding is worth exploring.

As others have noted, the tradition itself is alive and organic. It incorporates whatever instruments arrive on the scene that can create a sound the players like.

Leaving out bone, cane or bark whistles, the oldest widely available whistles I know of are the cylindrical brass, lead fipple type that were distributed by Barnett Samuel (now Decca) and others, begining in the first half of the 1800's.

I have several examples of these, including a Barnett Samuel in the key of "B". The voicing of these is quite flexible, and many of them sound not a lot different from the plastic fippled, mass produced Generations that have become associated so closely with the tradition. The Barnett Samuel "B", however, is an unusual instrument, with an almost Overton-like resonance. I'm sure that then, as now, musicians would have tinkered with the windway and soundblade configuration (easy to do on these whistles, which are malleable, thin metal) to arrive at a voicing that pleased the individual player.

In the middle of the 1800's, Robert Clarke began mass producing rolled and soldered, tinplate whistles. According to the Clarke Company's version of the legend, these became popular among the Irish boatmen who worked the English canals, they brought them home to Ireland, and Clarke's version of the whistle became an intergral part of the tradition. The conical, rolled and soldered whistles have a different sort of resonance, and they also lend themselves to tinkering with the windway and soundblade, so that would have added quite an additional range of voicings that would have been used by musicians during that time.

Even though there tend to be strong opinions among those who like or don't like the Susato sound, they're used quite a lot by musicians recording and performing Irish traditional music, and I think it would be appropriate to acknowledge that they have created their own place in the tradition as it is represented today.

I think there are two main points here:

1. The tradition, like any living folk tradition, will naturally be opportunistic and incorporate whatever instruments are available to the musicians who perform within that tradition. By a sort of natural selection, some instruments will become more or less widely accepted, and the more widely accepted ones will eventually be considered traditional in their own right.

2. Even when the selection of instruments may have been smaller a century or more ago, there still would have been quite a wide range of whistle voicings available. To state that a certain voicing is or isn't traditional, it seems to me, might be overreaching in most cases.

Best wishes,
Jerry