It's a small point, but. . .

[mutepointe]

1. I never call the USA "America". I think that's awful selfish and forgetful of the rest of the Americas and the American countries.

2. If I'm speaking about this country, I say, "United States".

Then that's awful selfish and forgetful of our neighbors to the south. You know, Los Estados Unidos Mexicanos ... The Mexican United States. Yes, that's the name of the country.

Tricky, ain't it?

Take my text out of context why don't you. Also, why don't you take a California-centric view of life in West Virginia. There is rarely ever a reason to talk about Mexico in West Virginia. Mexican food for sure but never Mexico.

Trickier, ain't it? (I don't do emoticons)

[MTGuru]

Take my text out of context why don't you.

Nope, it's completely in your context. If it's selfish and forgetful to say "America" because other countries of the Western hemisphere claim the term as their shared patrimony, is it not equally selfish and forgetful to say "United States" when other countries (not only Mexico) claim or have claimed that term as well?

But no matter, it's a rhetorical question, let's not veer into the political. The danger illustrated is in trying to put too fine a point on our casual, conventional, and idiosyncratic usage of terms like "America" and "United States" ... and "Eb key".

On the other hand, George Lakoff's concept of linguistic framing suggests that the choice and connotations of words can set up subtle expectations which predispose people to think and act in particular ways.

For example, if you think in terms of "Eb key", does that predispose you to make more use of chromatic alterations of E than if you think of it as "D# key"? I suppose it's an example of a hypothesis that could be tested empirically by choosing appropriately selected players as subjects.

[david_h]

Are you a pot half full or a pot half empty person ? Is 2.5 0.5 more than 2 or 0.5 less than 3. How do we manage with all these things to worry about ?

[MTGuru]

Are you a pot half full or a pot half empty person ?

Or 56% full, in the case of Just Intonation with a D root and the note between D and E at a ratio of 16/15. In fact, there's the answer. Since that note is closer to E than to D, clearly it's an Eb.

[Steampacket]

Eb or D# who cares, keyless is the true path of the Irish traditional flute player and don't even mention Bb - less is more. Another thing over here we say the New World or the Americas As someone mentioned already - just play

[jemtheflute]

keyless is the true path of the Irish traditional flute player

since about 1990, in a noticeable way, with roots back to, oh, maybe 1975! Grand old tradition.

Which is to say, "(very rude words thought but not typed)".

Neo-trad music on neo-trad flutes.

[talasiga]

no matey.
with roots back to the keyless whistle
and most pan eurasian cultures that used a keyless diatonic whistle or flute
for thousands of years.

The fact that ITM took advantage of disused old keyed classical flutes and recycled them
for their predominantly key not really required repertoire does not make it a tradition derivative of
the other.

[mutepointe]

Take my text out of context why don't you.

Nope, it's completely in your context. If it's selfish and forgetful to say "America" because other countries of the Western hemisphere claim the term as their shared patrimony, is it not equally selfish and forgetful to say "United States" when other countries (not only Mexico) claim or have claimed that term as well?

But no matter, it's a rhetorical question, let's not veer into the political.

This isn't political at all but geographical. The USA is part, not all, of North America and not located in South America at all. (Someone will point out territories or bases.) To speak of the United States in my own country, in a state in my own country that is nowhere near any other country, the "of America" becomes superflourous in casual conversation. I can't speak for conversations in California, as you should not speak for conversations in West Virginia. Maybe to make a distinction between the two United States of America and Mexico is more important in California. I don't know but I bet you do. I do know there is rarely, if ever a need to make that distinction in West Virginia. As a Californian, maybe you've learned something today.

Take a look at the USA Census Demographics of West Virginia, by county if possible, before you attempt to reclaim your authoritity of knowledge of West Virginia.

[talasiga]

Without meaning to escalate any unnecessary (off topic) conflict that ALREADY exists in most topics around here INDEPENDENT of my arguable causation, if you asked the normal person in any street of an English speaking country (past and present) what the US refers to they would know it meant the USA and no significant number let alone proportion would even bring Mexico into the equation.

Now lets try to get back to the topic, shall we? Did Boehm speak English? And what, precisely, may he have thought of the predeliction of certain USA citzens to claim America for themselves? Did I just say that? Of course they don't mean to but then there are more of them that say it of themselves then Canadians, for example.

[Nanohedron]

For example, if you think in terms of "Eb key", does that predispose you to make more use of chromatic alterations of E than if you think of it as "D# key"?

Not one whit.

I suppose it's an example of a hypothesis that could be tested empirically by choosing appropriately selected players as subjects.

Then again, I'm probably inappropriate.

[johnkerr]

This thread reminds me of a T shirt I saw being worn once at some protest of US involvement in foreign affairs:

"US OUT OF NORTH AMERICA"

[Akiba]

This thread is still going ? We must really be desperate .

D#D#D#D#D#D#D#D#D#D#D#D#D#D#D#D#D#D#D#D#D#D#D#

Keep hittin' 'em, Cubitt. Never say "die"!

[MeaghanEryn]

In case anyone cares, in my experience most Canadians understand the difference between "America" and "the Americas" and don't get offended at all if you call citizens of the United States of America "Americans". Or maybe we've all been brainwashed into acceptance by the overload of American (USA?) television and movies and books and media in general that we are presented with that make extensive use of the term "American" [before I get anyone up in arms, I mean that to be taken more jokingly than literally]. But that's a whole other topic I don't really want to get into, and we're off-topic enough already.

[MTGuru]

in my experience most Canadians understand the difference between "America" and "the Americas" and don't get offended at all if you call citizens of the United States of America "Americans".

Yes, thanks Meaghan. With his belabored geography, what mutepoint still doesn't realize is that I was poking fun at the politically correct punctiliousness of his first statement about "America", not the accuracy of his second statement.

As I recall, the "United States of Mexico" is a "fun fact" I learned in my 3rd grade class in suburban New York. Don't think I've ever heard it in California. I wonder how that factors in.

As a Californian, maybe you've learned something today.

Well, mute, I tried to save you from yourself. But OK, let me see if I have your lesson straight.

You assumed (incorrectly) that my objection is because of the state where I happen to live, where we happen to have a lot of those brown people around who might actually care about such things. Your state, on the other hand, is mostly free of those pesky brown people, as I can verify for myself in the USA Census Demographics. Therefore it's OK in WV conversations to ignore what they might think. Except that they do make mighty tasty tacos and enchiladas. Is that about it?

Actually, let's assume that's not it, because I know you're a nicer person than that. Let's assume instead that your OT post was a fiendishly clever ploy to do Cubitt a huge favor and put this thread out of its misery.

[talasiga]

When you folks stop arguing nover nothing much and certainly not relevant
I have something quite original and thoughtful to say on the actual topic.
It will hone in my specultaion about why Boehm and others mentioned chose to call the key D#.

Anyway I am waiting ..........