FREE FROM SERPENT MUSIC - A THANK YOU

[glauber]

That's fine. I'm not from Ireland either. I guess it's nice to have the sound clips there, as long as people don't think that's what they should aim for. Check the clips on Brother Steve's site; i think he isn't from Ireland either.

The problem Peter and others are referring too is that of putting those up as examples for people to learn from, especially when there are already plenty of examples that were done by people who play well. Bill plays at a novice level. That's fine, everybody has to start somewhere.

[susnfx]

When I was just starting to play the whistle, I remember distinctly (because it wasn't that long ago) listening to tons of clips all over the internet, downloading music, trying to get a feel for what ITM truly sounded like. I even remember asking on this forum what beginners should be listening to and who we could learn from if we didn't have excellent teachers nearby.

If someone then had posted tunes on their website and advertised them as learning tools, I'd have appreciated very much if people much more knowledgeable than I about ITM would have given their cricitisms of it so I'd have had some idea about its worth. I'd much rather learn correctly right from the start than learn it incorrectly and have to try to undo bad habits later on.

Susan

[greenspiderweb]

Bill's heart is in the right place, but so is Peter's-he is right about learning from a good player, if you are serious about your music. It is much easier to learn the right way to play. It will reap many benefits and readily show in your music when you play.
If on the other hand, if you just want to fool around at it, and don't have any big musical aspirations, you can learn something from those clips. And if they are compared to good players clips or cd's, you can learn how not to play!
I wouldn't recommend a mediocre player as an instructor, however, if he is the only example to learn from. If he uses good recordings as examples to learn from, then, it doesn't matter as much how well he plays. But it would still be more helpful to the student to see it done well, in person.

[Wombat]

Gee, guys, this is NOT the ITRAD forum!
Bill is NOT from Ireland!
In this country we don't hear ITRAD music from the time we are
in the womb.
Why would anyone in his area of Missouri care if he just played
"notes" and sounded American or not? In his neck-of-the-woods,
I'm sure it sounds plenty "Irish".
Lolly

If Bill was playing well in some style other than an Irish style, would you please tell us what it is? You can play Irish tunes with an English folk feel, an Australian bush band feel, an old-timey feel, an easy listening feel or even a jazzy feel. But he wasn't playing in any of those styles. I love American roots music in dozens of styles but I couldn't recognise that one.

[BillChin]

I wouldn't recommend a mediocre player as an instructor, however, if he is the only example to learn from. If he uses good recordings as examples to learn from, then, it doesn't matter as much how well he plays. But it would still be more helpful to the student to see it done well, in person.

Interesting that perspective, the cliche comes to mind, "if you can't do, teach." Aren't many music teachers, people that fall back to teaching because they don't play well enough to make money as performers? A key determinant is the definition of mediocre, just how mediocre can a teacher be and still be effective. The suggestion to use recordings of accomplished professionals is one that even top flight musicians can take to heart, because other musicians will have different interpretations.

Being of limited talent myself, I can appreciate BillW's willingness to put himself in the spotlight, both in teaching a class, and posting clips on the Internet. I also see that with ITM, the traditionalists pointing out the pitfalls are coming from a place of service, not domination, though it may not come off that way in the harsh pixels of a message board.
+ another Bill

[irishduffy]

It goes like this- Those who can do, do. Those who can not do teach.
No offense to anyone about that above. I do agree with BillChin at least respect he put his music up, and before you flame make sure people have heard your music.

[Side note] I do not question any one who has posted yet, I lack ornamentation therefore have no room to speak.

[Wombat]

Interesting that perspective, the cliche comes to mind, "if you can't do, teach." Aren't many music teachers, people that fall back to teaching because they don't play well enough to make money as performers? A key determinant is the definition of mediocre, just how mediocre can a teacher be and still be effective.

Since the cliche you quote isn't your cliche, I hope you don't mind if I say that it's complete crap. The reality is that very few people can make a decent living from music (or scholarship for that matter) without earning some of their living from teaching and those who can are appealing to a 'pop' audience. Lot's of creative writers have to supplement their income working as school or university teachers. In plenty of areas, too, the difference between the teacher and the internationally acclaimed soloist might only be about 5% to 10%. It might have more to do with charisma or just personal drive than technical proficiency. If you don't make it as a concert pianist, but were once a contender, you would still be a formidably gifted musician and their is no orchestra seat for you to occupy as second best. Orchestra players who are not principles would almost certainly have to teach.

Someone who plays poorly can't teach by ear in any style. They can show a student where to find the notes and offer encouragement but that is all. How can you teach phrasing 'by ear' if you can't demonstrate it? Showing someone how not to do it leaves open infinitely many possible ways of doing it—what help would that be unless the student already has access to first rate recordings?

[Cayden]

It goes like this- Those who can do, do. Those who can not do teach.
No offense to anyone about that above. I do agree with BillChin at least respect he put his music up, and before you flame make sure people have heard your music.

.

But the saying doesn't conclude saying if that's a good thing or not, just that 'they' teach because they can't do the other thing.

In this specific situation Bill put up music to be learned by ear. But he has no example, that's my point and that's why I said above ' if you're not up t oit, don't teach by ear'.

I teach the pipes, I have young musians come to me wh ohave been tought by a phenomenal whistleplayer. When they come to me the are accomplisdsed and fine whislteplayers at age twelve or thriteen. You would not believe what a difference it makes if the basics were absorbed by ear from a prime example. Honestly, believe me on that one.


I take it your make sure people can hear your music' was aimed at me. That's the one thatusually comes up in this situation.
Look at clips and snips, I don't mind, I put a new one up today in relation to the Humphrey whistle review thread (link posted in that thread) as a sound sample, but there are older ones too, I wouldn't think of presenting them as a teaching example though.


[fixed a few typos]

[Jetboy]

[quote="Peter Laban
I once questioned the fact he seemed proud being a 'pretty lousy player' and didn't think it was an admirable quality in a maker of instruments.

[/quote]

At the risk of taking this debate on a parrallel course, (and maybe that is not a bad thing, Bill has taken enough flak), I am not altogether convinced of Peter's argument here. Just 'coz you don't play like a professional doesn't mean you can't make a decent sounding whistle. I make a prety good whistle (or so I am told) but I certainly don't play it with great skill. Oh sure, I can get the notes in the right order and syncopate my tunes reasonably well, but I don't need a $200 whistle to do that. And neither do the whistling greats. Most of them probably used the low end whistles in any case. I believe that it is what you do with your instrument that separates the great from the good from the mediocre and just because you are not up there with the great, doesn't mean that you don't know what a good instrument should sound like

I await to be convinced otherwise.

[Cayden]

OK briefly,I am convinced you can make a decent instrument when you're not a great player but you're not likely make a great instrument when you're not a great player because you won't be able to appreciate firsthand the finer points a great player will be looking for. Now back to topic.

[Pat Cannady]

Aren't many music teachers, people that fall back to teaching because they don't play well enough to make money as performers?

Ummmm...NO!!!!

Many excellent musicians teach to supplement their income because good gigs are few and far between and touring all the time is a real grind on one's mental and physical health.

[glauber]

The connection between "making enough money as a performer" and "being an excellent musician" is tenuous.

[Jetboy]

OK briefly,I am convinced you can make a decent instrument when you're not a great player but you're not likely make a great instrument when you're not a great player because you won't be able to appreciate firsthand the finer points a great player will be looking for. Now back to topic.

Nah, sorry, that's still bollocks. A whistle is a whistle is a whistle. They are all identical in principle, just differ in quality. A great player can make a mediocre whistle sing, a good whistle operatic. It is the player that makes the finer points really, not the whistle, which is why, as I said before, great players like Mary Bergin can make a cheap whistle sound fantastic. A mediocre player can still appreciate the finer points of playing without being able to recreate it, and can therefore make a whistle that can perform well in the right hands. I have made instruments that sound like a car exhaust when I blow it but put inthe hands of a professional and they become another instrument entirely.

I still need to be convinced.......

[Cayden]

Nah, sorry, that's still bollocks. A whistle is a whistle is a whistle.

I still need to be convinced.......

Fine, that's your opinion. Typically it is another whistlemaker who doesn't want to see the point. We'll leave it there, start another thread if you want to dig through the subject any furhter.

[irishduffy]

It goes like this- Those who can do, do. Those who can not do teach.
No offense to anyone about that above. I do agree with BillChin at least respect he put his music up, and before you flame make sure people have heard your music..

I take it your make sure people can hear your music' was aimed at me. That's the one that usually comes up in this situation..

No PLEASE do not take me out of contexts. I said this

[Side note] I do not question any one who has posted yet, I lack ornamentation therefore have no room to speak..

First Peter Laban I respect your voice and have took heed of you on the uilleann forum. That Qoute was for future posters to consider to keep this civilized. As far as serpent posting his music I respect any one who has the balls to post their music, especially if they do so knowing they are a novice. Yet agree he should not call this a source for learning by ear.
As far as the teaching Quote I simply was stating something my father has told me my whole life. Filling in what billchin was looking for I believe.

Pat Cannady- To you there is no one I respect more than a good teacher. But the qoute in my opinion shows, How those who are not good enough to perform have at times turned to teaching, thus they taint the name of good teachers. My remark was nothing of the sort against being paid to do what a person loves.