D slide

[Gio]

... and C#? Is it possible to roll it??

[Joseph E. Smith]

Certainly.... use the cut and pat method explained with cnat.

[David Lim]

If you are trying to roll c# you can only tap with the c finger as your lower fingers should be on the chanter. Some pipers will also use the c finger to tap a cnat roll as the resultant roll has more in common with all the other rolls than a lower hand tap. The lower hand tap produces a c#, which is higher than the note being rolled. If I roll a cnat or c# (which isn't very often) I use my c finger for the tap

There are 3 distinct (note) segments in a roll and all should be of equal duration. The rhythm of the roll is the most important aspect of it.

No one else has commented on this (maybe it's come up before, a quick search found nothing) so I was wondering about roll timing.

Sometimes my roll "segments" are of equal duration, sometime they are not. This can depend on the type of tune and the position within the tune.

When they are not equal I leave the first part longer than the second two.

Surely you don't all play your roll segments of equal duration.

David

[djm]

DL, you cut both the C# and Cnat with the back D. Same for rolls on these two notes.

Rolls are rhythmic. Whatever fits into the particular tune at the particular time you add it. See the Patsy Tuohey book for all sorts of variations of rolls.

djm

[David Lim]

DL, you cut both the C# and Cnat with the back D. Same for rolls on these two notes.

Rolls are rhythmic. Whatever fits into the particular tune at the particular time you add it. See the Patsy Tuohey book for all sorts of variations of rolls.

djm

Thanks djm, I got so involved in comparing the different ways of tapping a cnat/c# roll I forgot to state the obvious, that first you cut with the d.

David

[totokots]

Surely you don't all play your roll segments of equal duration.

Actually I do, so I do.

By the way my definition of, say, a G roll is G-G-G in duration. (There is another "short" roll which would be G-G in duration, and it has a different execution).

If you were playing, for example, a (double) jig, each note would have an equal duration: 1-2-3-1-2-3 etc, so therefore each segment of the roll should have equal duration. It is actually more technically difficult to play with this strict rhythm, but it definately adds to the overall rhythm of a tune.

Rolls are often the part of a tune that causes a beginner's rhythm to get a bit hairy (usually through speeding up), and it is because they don't give each segment an equal duration.

[Gio]

Do I? Don't I? never thought about that... (I know it sounds pretty sad for a piper)
I think I don't though. I probably tap with the note under the rolled one too fast.
What I try to do is just being in time with the whole roll in the tune, not with every single part of it. I see the importance of playing each segment of the same duration however and I'm surely going to practice it in future.

Do you play rolls faster or slower according to the time of the tune?

I've noticed that when I'm learning a tune fairly slowly I also play ornamentation of the same time. Is that the same with you?

[totokots]

Hi Gio

Yeah, I always play my rolls at the rhythm of the tune. If you are playing a tune with 3 G's for example, you could just play 3 G's with a cut between the 1st G and the 2nd G, and another cut between the 2nd and 3rd. That gives you 3 G's, each of equal duration.

An alternative would be to play 3 G's in staccatto style, stopping the chanter after each, but again the duration between the start of each G should be the same length.

A roll is yet another alternative to playing 3 G's, so each segemnt should be of equal duration.

When practicing rolls, take them very slowly at first, concentrating on the precise timing of the cut and tap. Then try a simple tune with some rolls, but start the tune as slowly as you need to play it so that you can comfortably play the roll at the same rhythm as the rest of the tune.

I believe the rhythm of Irish music is the source of its beauty. There is nothing wrong with playing fast, so long as the rhythm is consistant. But beginners often fall into the speed trap, and rolls are often the souce of the trap. So when learning a tune, identify the part that you find most technically difficult (roll, triplet, etc) and play the tune slowly enough so you don't need to change rhythm to play the difficult phrase.

Also avoid the paradoxical trap of rushing the part you are unsure of! Discipline yourself to get the rhythm right, and now you are playing music!

[AlanB]

e.g. If you are rolling in the 2nd 8ve, you may sometimes need to squeeze into the note you are rolling so that you don't drop the 8ve, so you have to either start the note early and play regular segments, or start the note bang on with the 'squeeze' and fit the roll into the time you have left, or run the roll into the next notes space, whichever, you won't be able to be as a note on a page (who'd wanna be?) Or, as I have heard Keenan do, is to push the roll onto an off beat. Or slide into a roll.

I believe it is what young people today refer to as 'swing'. But them Cats is krazeee!

Alan

[djm]

Do you play rolls faster or slower according to the time of the tune?

You play rolls in time with the tune. For example, a simple short roll fits the space of a quarter note, so it becomes two eighth notes (tap = 1 eighth note, cut has no value): cut, note, tap. A simple long roll fits the space of a dotted quarter note, so it becomes three eighth notes in the roll (tap = 1 eighth note, cut has no value): note, cut, note, tap.

Hope that helps. You really ought to get the Heather Clarke tutor to answer these basic questions.

djm

[AlanB]

..

[Joseph E. Smith]

and if you are double tapping or double cutting a roll?

Alan

...all the better to share with friends, although it may increase marmalade consumption.

[djm]

and if you are double tapping or double cutting a roll?

I think you are probably being smart, but will respond anyways because you bring up a good point.

Obviously you still have the same amount of time in the tune, so you would reduce the length of your taps to fit the time. So if you took one of the above mentioned taps at one eighth note, and turned it into two taps, the two taps would have to be a sixteenth note each (if you are playing them equally). Either way, you only have the space of an eighth note to fill in the tune, otherwise you have to start trimming the length of the notes on either side of your ornament.

I call this a good point because there is piper I know (no names) who perennially adds an extra sixteenth or thirty-second note to the tune every time he adds any ornament. It is subtle at first, but he slowly drifts off the beat, driving everyone else in the session nuts, because they can't quite tell at what point he is going off.

djm

[eric_smith]

Do you play rolls faster or slower according to the time of the tune?

You play rolls in time with the tune. For example, a simple short roll fits the space of a quarter note, so it becomes two eighth notes (tap = 1 eighth note, cut has no value): cut, note, tap. A simple long roll fits the space of a dotted quarter note, so it becomes three eighth notes in the roll (tap = 1 eighth note, cut has no value): note, cut, note, tap.

Hope that helps. You really ought to get the Heather Clarke tutor to answer these basic questions.

djm

While this description matches Ms. Clarke's, a more comprehensive look at the timing of rolls is Irish Union Pipes by Denis Brooks, and additional insight is found in Dance Music of Willie Clancy by Pat Mitchell and The Piping of Patsy Touhey by Mitchell and Small. These last two are good because you can follow along with the recordings (if you have them).

Pipers of all levels would benefit from being able to distinguish among the various approaches.

Eric

[totokots]

Hi Djm

you say above:

(tap = 1 eighth note, cut has no value)

.

I agree that a cut has no value, but likewise, the tap should have no time value either. It should be an instantaneous action to distinguish between the second and third segments of the roll. The finger(s) should literally bounce off the chanter as soon as they hit, and not dwell on the chanter, as this would stop the note.