What is the sound difference of Pratten vs. Ruddal?

RudallRose · Post by **RudallRose** » Fri Aug 26, 2005 3:09 pm

Frankly I think it started with Pat Olwell, who was one of the first to offer his Rudall model (smallish holes), Nicholson model (medium-large holes) and Pratten model (large holes).

Then it became Pratten flutes to mean single-body middle and Rudall to mean the two-piece mid-body.

Then it came to be Pratten to be loud and Rudall to mean quiet.

Then it became Pratten to mean hard to fill because of its large bore and Rudall to be easier because of its small bore.

Why not say Monzani to be Small-holed, Prowse to be medium and Pask to be large?

I think because one man came to use just those two flutes, switching from a Rudall to a Boosey-Pratten: Matt Molloy.

He didn't flip the nomenclature around; but his moves were certainly watched closely.

Fact is, it does a disservice to the flutes themselves. More of today's flutes are homogeneous than the flutes of yore. As such we're losing a great deal of diversity and quality that made each maker great.

Most people haven't had the luxury of playing a diverse array of Rudalls, let alone just one. The same with Prattens or the other great makers, some not getting the credit they assuredly deserve. As such, they are inexpense and most people curl their noses at them....until they try one. One such maker is Henry Wylde. His work with the Rudall name garners thousands, but his own name, hundreds only.

It is indeed correctible if we make it clear. The makers have some responsibility in this, but I think the majority of the work are people such as myself and Levine who have played and been around many of these flutes enough to not allow them to be set into just two camps.

As I said, it would be better to do the large-hole, small hole camp than the Rudall/Pratten.

It's sort of like the phrase "alleged victims." No one is alleging that they are a victim; they are alleging they were victimized and that someone committed a crime. So it should be "the person who accuses so-and-so of this-and-that." It's clear, it's precise, it's accurate.

I don't mean to run off on this topic, but I'd rather help people appreciate the flute rather than let the miseducation and misinterpretations go on and on to such a point that you can't ever get at the truth again.

My 2 cents

chas · Post by **chas** » Fri Aug 26, 2005 3:38 pm

David Migoya wrote: I think because one man came to use just those two flutes, switching from a Rudall to a Boosey-Pratten: Matt Molloy.

Can any of you out there with more discerning ears than I tell the difference in sound between Mr. Molloy's Rudall and Pratten (and Olwell) playing?

To bear out David's point, Glenn Schultz's flutes were based on a Rudall, and they have some of the biggest holes on any flute I've played. Not Hammy big, but Seery big. It does have a smaller-than-normal bore with a small taper.

Re. the original question, I generally have more trouble with the low notes on large-holed flutes than on small-holed flutes. Interestingly, this includes Olwell Pratten- vs. Olwell Nicholson- and Rudall-style flutes, which all have the same embouchure cut. I don't think it has anything to do with the design of the flute, but the flute that I cut my teeth on, which was a small-holed flute.

RudallRose · Post by **RudallRose** » Fri Aug 26, 2005 4:15 pm

Doesnt' matter if we can.....
Matt can.

It's why Pratten and Rudall hit the big time in Irish music.

If he'd been playing a Wylde and a Prowse.....we'd be doing all that debate.

Point is.....he was the first big name in flute playing whose weapon of choice became the focus of everyone trying to play.

And, yes....you CAN tell a difference.
He is better suited to the Boosey. Though these days it's his Olwell he grabs most often.

dm

Wormdiet · Post by **Wormdiet** » Fri Aug 26, 2005 4:21 pm

Most people haven't had the luxury of playing a diverse array of Rudalls, let alone just one. The same with Prattens or the other great makers, some not getting the credit they assuredly deserve. As such, they are inexpense and most people curl their noses at them....until they try one. One such maker is Henry Wylde. His work with the Rudall name garners thousands, but his own name, hundreds only.

FOr people in the states, such as myself, it's an issue with familiarity. I'm enthusiastic about several flutes I've played. To date, the "high end" flutes in that category are Olwell and Murray. We just don't see the larger variety of instruments that are out there. The name recognition issue is self-perpetuating - who is going to risk money on a Wylde if they've never heard or heard *of* one?

Selfishly speaking, it would be very difficult for a lefty like me to find a suitable antique

RudallRose · Post by **RudallRose** » Fri Aug 26, 2005 5:36 pm

You're quite right, worm
I suppose that's one good reason for this board.
Ergo all the typing on this thread.

Wylde, by the way, is not a contemporary.
Visit www.rudallrose.com and follow the link to Wylde and you can read something about him.
Excellent flutes, by the way, for a very very good price (usually)!

rama · Post by **rama** » Fri Aug 26, 2005 7:48 pm

fwiw, michael tubridy can be heard playing his wylde/r&r on his wonderful solo recording 'the eagle's whistle' as well as on the first few chieftain recordings. that should give a good idea of how they sound.

jim stone · Post by **jim stone** » Fri Aug 26, 2005 9:04 pm

Where does one find Wylde's flutes? on e bay? or?

Wormdiet · Post by **Wormdiet** » Fri Aug 26, 2005 11:56 pm

rama wrote:fwiw, michael tubridy can be heard playing his wylde/r&r on his wonderful solo recording 'the eagle's whistle' as well as on the first few chieftian recordings. that should give a good idea of how they sound.

On those Chieftains albums I happen to own, the flute is very muted and buried in the mix. . . hard to tell what he sounds like. Maybe I'll try headphones next time.

ninjaaron · Post by **ninjaaron** » Sat Aug 27, 2005 12:12 am

I think The analogies are the only things that I understood in this thread.

Sounds like I'm going to be looking at Rundalls to start with. I more of a Archtop/sports car guy. Chet Atkins over Jonny Cash.

One important feature on a flute, for me, which hasn't been discussed yet, is the ability to bend and half hole easily, but I suppose this has a lot to do with the holes and the bore than "Rundall vs. Pratten".

kkrell · Post by **kkrell** » Sat Aug 27, 2005 12:37 am

rama wrote:fwiw, michael tubridy can be heard playing his wylde/r&r on his wonderful solo recording 'the eagle's whistle' as well as on the first few chieftian recordings. that should give a good idea of how they sound.

He also plays the Wylde on A SELECTION OF IRISH TRADITIONAL STEP DANCES from http://www.setdance.com/ . I think also available on CD, perhaps from NPU.

Kevin Krell

talasiga · Post by **talasiga** » Sat Aug 27, 2005 2:10 am

ninjaaron wrote:......
One important feature on a flute, for me, which hasn't been discussed yet, is the ability to bend and half hole easily ......

I already explained to you that large tone holes and thin walls assist glissandi (glissando?) in the other topic.

I know David Migoya has great stature on account of his knowledge, dignity and mentorship of others, but I have problems with his assertions about Prattens.

OK, so David has an atypical medium holed Pratten. That does not shake the generalisation that Prattens are characterised by large tone holes. It is a generalisation based on predominance.

Cayden · Post by **Cayden** » Sat Aug 27, 2005 2:20 am

kkrell wrote:
He also plays the Wylde on A SELECTION OF IRISH TRADITIONAL STEP DANCES from http://www.setdance.com/ . I think also available on CD, perhaps from NPU.

Kevin Krell

There's a series of four tapes for setdancing of Tommy McCarthy, Eamonn McGivney and Michael Tubridy playing for Clare sets (with help from JUnior Crehan on a few tracks) produced by Larry Lynch (there's also a number of Sliabh Luachra sets o nthe tapes by players whose names I keep forgetting).
They were still available last time I saw them (hehe, last year) for 2.50 euro each. A Claddagh set dancing CD has some tracks from these as well as other stuff. Mighty music.

jim stone · Post by **jim stone** » Sat Aug 27, 2005 2:23 am

ninjaaron wrote:I think The analogies are the only things that I understood in this thread.

Sounds like I'm going to be looking at Rundalls to start with. I more of a Archtop/sports car guy. Chet Atkins over Jonny Cash.

One important feature on a flute, for me, which hasn't been discussed yet, is the ability to bend and half hole easily, but I suppose this has a lot to do with the holes and the bore than "Rundall vs. Pratten".

Both can do it. Bigger holes may facilitate half-holing, but
smaller holed flutes facilitate crossfingering accidentals.
I have both and I can slide and half hole on
them all. You get used to what you have.

Tal's point, if I may put it this way, is that while there
are exceptions to the generalizations, the
paradigm case of a Rudall is a smaller holed
narrower bored flute with a more focused sound,
the paradigm case of a Pratten is a larger
bored larger holed honker.

talasiga · Post by **talasiga** » Sat Aug 27, 2005 2:41 am

jim stone wrote:......
Bigger holes may facilitate half-holing, but
smaller holed flutes facilitate crossfingering accidentals.
I have both and I can slide and half hole on
them all. You get used to what you have.

....

You're a better man than me.

My current queen flute is a Seery blackwood (now with a replacement Delrin head). I don't know how you would classify it but it definitely is not Prattenesque or bansuric. Frankly, I've given up half holing/xfingering anything but C on it. It has a lot of positives and my audience loves it and it is my concert flute no 1 and I will never sell it but half holing anything but C - forget it. The Tipple flutes, in contrast, are ever so receptive.

When I was in Terry McGee's workshop some month's ago I played a range of the flutes there at his invitation. I seemed to get very excited with a certain type of flute and, as it turned out, he described these as Pratten type flutes. They had, as I recall, larger tone holes than the others and felt like bansuri under my fingers. Now I have very very small dainty hands but I had no probs with these Prattenesque pipes including the Bb.
Terry and I agreed that my leaning was no doubt due to my bansuri background.

rama · Post by **rama** » Sat Aug 27, 2005 8:49 am

Wormdiet wrote:
rama wrote:fwiw, michael tubridy can be heard playing his wylde/r&r on his wonderful solo recording 'the eagle's whistle' as well as on the first few chieftian recordings. that should give a good idea of how they sound.
On those Chieftains albums I happen to own, the flute is very muted and buried in the mix. . . hard to tell what he sounds like. Maybe I'll try headphones next time.

off hand, i recall a few places on the first three chieftains recordings where michael is solo or at least leading off a set... look for tunes like 'tie the bonnet', 'pigtown', 'lark on the strand', 'queen of may' etc. this stuff is classic