8 hole flutes and 6 hole flutes

[Rob Sharer]

I think it's been mentioned before that a long vs a short foot may affect the hardness and tone of the bell note. One can't really tell unless he has both kinds of feet (foots?) by the same maker.

There is something to this, but it's a false dichotomy. You also have to take into account the bore profile of the footjoint, which can have as much effect on the sound and performance of the flute as the length can.

Ideally, a test involving interchangeable footjoints would include both long and short joints in narrow and wide bore. What exactly constitutes narrow or wide is of course a matter for debate, but some established design mark for a free-blowing foot and a traditional, narrow foot could probably be decided on.

I haven't got any one flute with four footjoints, but I do have a couple that can accept at least two. My Olwell Rudall came with a short, wide-bore joint, which makes the flute extremely easy to get sound out of but limits the extent to which you can get the air column excited and buzzing. It also makes the low D very sharp with a hard blow. Swapping out with a long, tight, two-holed footjoint changes the performance of the flute up and down its range, for the better if you ask me. The flute comes alive with a hard blow, and the D is settled and in tune when blown up to maximum 'crack'. It would be easy to conclude "Long foot good, short foot ba-a-a-a-a-ddd"!!! However, I do wonder what the difference would be if the short foot weren't bored out quite so wide.

In any case, I think it would be hasty to draw any firm conclusions from the above test without including a couple of footjoints with different bore profiles. Cheers,

Rob

[benhall.1]

Is it me, or is there even more than that about foot joints (the differences Rob talks about) which could make a difference to the tone/sound? For instance, what would be the difference between two narrow bore, 'long' footjoints, one longer than the other (but obviously with the holes in the right place)? I'm guessing that, in this case, the long foot joint would be made so that, if one were to put keys on at some point, the entire foot joint would be in tune for low C? But it doesn't need to be, does it? And what about two narrow bore, 'short' foot joints, made to be different lengths by reason of exact hole size or placement?

I have a feeling I might be confusing myself here, mind ... If I'm raising a silly point, which just confuses others as well, would someone please just slap me?

[Lone-Coyote]

thank you people for helping, i think i would go for the 8 hole flute as soon as i got the money. I'm considering Dougg Tipple flutes. Your flutes
oh and beside i see many Tipple flutes are made for easy fingering, does it affect me if i play like a left handed person? (i'm right handed but i learned to play flute left handedly)

[LorenzoFlute]

Just tell him you're left handed

[jemtheflute]

thank you people for helping, i think i would go for the 8 hole flute as soon as i got the money. I'm considering Dougg Tipple flutes. Your flutes
oh and beside i see many Tipple flutes are made for easy fingering, does it affect me if i play like a left handed person? (i'm right handed but i learned to play flute left handedly)

The only problem with learning L handed is it makes getting a keyed flute (should you wish to do so) later rather more awkward and maybe expensive! It certainly rules out lower priced antiques which are the cheapest way into keyed flutes.

********************************************************************

Swiftly now ...

Nous parlons ici des voyages de foie de mouette, hein? Ca me sent du poisson!
(Mais au sujet des oeufs [de mouette ou ....], les partisans du grand bout ont toujours la raison!)

[Nanohedron]

I'm guessing that, in this case, the long foot joint would be made so that, if one were to put keys on at some point, the entire foot joint would be in tune for low C? But it doesn't need to be, does it?

I discussed this with one maker a while back, and I definitely recall that he said that in his case (at last report, and that was also a while back, he still didn't make keyed footjoints beyond Eb) the holes in his long footjoints didn't correspond reliably with C# and Cnat, but were there solely with the sonority theory in mind. I like to expect that his positioning of them was the result of study and subjective experience, but about that I neither recall asking, nor if he mentioned that part of it, or if he even believed any of that lore and just made them to satisfy the customer. I seem to recall that the last was actually the case, though...but I might of course be mistaken. The memory banks only solidly dish up the low C#/Cnat issue on his flutes.

[benhall.1]

"Voyages de foie de mouette" !

Sacre bleu!

[jemtheflute]

@ Ben. D'ya think Roly would approve?

[Kirk B]

I'm guessing that, in this case, the long foot joint would be made so that, if one were to put keys on at some point, the entire foot joint would be in tune for low C? But it doesn't need to be, does it?

I discussed this with one maker a while back, and I definitely recall that he said that in his case (at last report, and that was also a while back, he still didn't make keyed footjoints beyond Eb) the holes in his long footjoints didn't correspond reliably with C# and Cnat, but were there solely with the sonority theory in mind. I like to expect that his positioning of them was the result of study and subjective experience, but about that I neither recall asking, nor if he mentioned that part of it, or if he even believed any of that lore and just made them to satisfy the customer. I seem to recall that the last was actually the case, though...but I might of course be mistaken. The memory banks only solidly dish up the low C#/Cnat issue on his flutes.

I don't know, but if I had to take a wild guess I'd say that having the C & C# keys hanging over the holes would change the pitch to some extent. Using that line of reasoning I wouldn't expect the bottom holes on an 8-holed keyless flute to be in the same position they'd be in if the flutes had keys there. Or for that matter would they even be the same diameter as on a keyed flute?

[Nanohedron]

I don't know, but if I had to take a wild guess I'd say that having the C & C# keys hanging over the holes would change the pitch to some extent. Using that line of reasoning I wouldn't expect the bottom holes on an 8-holed keyless flute to be in the same position they'd be in if the flutes had keys there. Or for that matter would they even be the same diameter as on a keyed flute?

Yeah, sorry, but that's the stuff I don't remember from the conversation, if it came up at all. At the time I wouldn't even have had the keywork experience to think about it. All I remember is what he told me about his design. We were discussing unkeyed, not keyed, long feet, and my question was essentially an idle one.

But for what it's worth, if we take my own 8-keyed flute as an example for part of what you're wondering about: my C# and Cnat keypads are set rather low, but according to my ear the bottom D isn't the flatter for it compared to higher setups. I had it both ways, in fact (especially in one instance not from the maker after some guy - a professional instrument repairman, no less - did a careless job of polishing the keywork on a buffing wheel with the keys still attached to the damned flute and it came back to me with the C#/Cnat pad cups bent up - and not equally, mind you. ). If I were a maker myself, I'm sure I could contribute something substantial to your questions. But I'm not, and these are things that I'm not qualified to give informed opinions on.

[talasiga]

I discussed this with one maker a while back, and I definitely recall that he said that in his case (at last report, and that was also a while back, he still didn't make keyed footjoints beyond Eb) the holes in his long footjoints didn't correspond reliably with C# and Cnat, but were there solely with the sonority theory in mind. I like to expect that his positioning of them was the result of study and subjective experience, but about that I neither recall asking, nor if he mentioned that part of it, or if he even believed any of that lore and just made them to satisfy the customer. I seem to recall that the last was actually the case, though...but I might of course be mistaken. The memory banks only solidly dish up the low C#/Cnat issue on his flutes.

Just to clarify (AGAIN - since the last time this sort of issue was discussed)
The "C# hole" is actually the vent for the note D. So that hole must necessarily be a hole that is part and parcel of the D major articulation of the flute.

Therefore the proper purport of Nano' s reference is that the last hole and the opening at end of the flute may not be accurate C# and C vents.

[Nanohedron]

Right. So other details aside, the next hole down, and the terminus, on an unkeyed long foot would probably be less subject to stringency of placement or proportion, common sense tells me. But again, I'm not a maker.

[benhall.1]

@ Ben. D'ya think Roly would approve?

I think he'd glare murderously at you for taking his (half) native tongue in vain.

[an seanduine]

Talasiga wrote:

Therefore the proper purport of Nano' s reference is that the last hole and the opening at end of the flute may not be accurate C# and C vents.

I have a Dixon poly conic keyless flute in four sections. According to Tony it was an early and discontinued model. Upon close examination I would surmise it was somewhat experimental as well. The two "vent holes" are quite close together and at the extreme end of a rather long foot.
The bell D is slightly flat, but comes in when pushed. Closing the supposed C# hole does not give a true note, nor closing off both C# or C render a true C. Removing the foot altogether curiously renders a rather true Eb.
Clearly the design of the foot has been 'jiggered' with from the original small hole RR it appears to be based upon. Or so it would seem to me.

Bob

[sbfluter]

thank you people for helping, i think i would go for the 8 hole flute as soon as i got the money. I'm considering Dougg Tipple flutes. Your flutes
oh and beside i see many Tipple flutes are made for easy fingering, does it affect me if i play like a left handed person? (i'm right handed but i learned to play flute left handedly)

I can't imagine that Doug's flutes would have any need for an extended foot joint. I would get that if I liked it, but the sound of the non-foot-jointed flute is great and the weight is so light there's no need for balance.

As for easy fingering, the cylindrical flute has a disadvantage from the start.