Don't Hit Me - but...

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DrPhill
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Re: Don't Hit Me - but...

Post by DrPhill »

HDSarah wrote: Did anyone else find the phrasing odd in this version of Neil Gow's Lament? It seemed to me that, in several places, she took breaths in the middle of what seem to me to be the natural phrases.
I like this tune a lot and have played it a lot. To my ears the lady does seem to breath more often than I would like to - maybe that monstrous r******r takes lots of air? I also felt that the middle section got a bit lost. But then what do I know? I am not really a musician yet. :)

Out of interest how does my phrasing compare with yours? Do you have a recording?

My favourite you tube recording of this tune is the one by Niel Gow.
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Re: Don't Hit Me - but...

Post by cboody »

DrPhill wrote:
HDSarah wrote: Did anyone else find the phrasing odd in this version of Neil Gow's Lament? It seemed to me that, in several places, she took breaths in the middle of what seem to me to be the natural phrases.
My favourite you tube recording of this tune is the one by Niel Gow.

That is a lovely version, but it is not Neil Gow playing. Take another look at the video. I'm not sure how old Gow would need to be to have a video out, but certainly more than 100. :pint:

I find the phrasing different but not odd on the other video mentioned. The phrasing is quite like that used in some baroque playing and after all this is an early music group. The recorders are Adri's Dream (sp?) instruments. I have one of the mass produced ones from Moellenhauer and they are doubtless playing the hand crafted version. The do take more air than my other recorders but I don't think that is the reason for the phrasing. There are several places where an "obvious" breath point is skipped and the player goes past it to another point to breath and there are also several places where the phrases are made very short. I think this is a performer's choice. Probably not the choice that would be made had the players listened to the many fine fiddle versions around, but still a conscious one. And, one that I enjoy. Listen to the other youtube of Quadriga. They are amazing.
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Re: Don't Hit Me - but...

Post by Feadoggie »

cboody wrote:That is a lovely version, but it is not Neil Gow playing. Take another look at the video. I'm not sure how old Gow would need to be to have a video out, but certainly more than 100.
:lol: Right! Old Neil kicked the bucket around 1807.
cboody wrote:The recorders are Adri's Dream (sp?) instruments.
I was thinking the instruments were from another maker based on a Ganassi format possibly by Grinter, Hulsens or Netsch. But the profile of so many renaissance recorders are similar thanks to Fred Morgan that it is difficult to tell exactly who the maker may be from the quality of that YouTube video. Adrianna Breukink certainly was influenced by Ganassi type recorders (and others) in developing the Dream recorders but all of the Dream recorders I have seen (Mollenhauer and Breukink) show the characteristic raised beads unlike those in the video. Who knows?
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Re: Don't Hit Me - but...

Post by DrPhill »

cboody wrote:
DrPhill wrote:
HDSarah wrote: Did anyone else find the phrasing odd in this version of Neil Gow's Lament? It seemed to me that, in several places, she took breaths in the middle of what seem to me to be the natural phrases.
My favourite you tube recording of this tune is the one by Niel Gow.

That is a lovely version, but it is not Neil Gow playing. Take another look at the video. I'm not sure how old Gow would need to be to have a video out, but certainly more than 100. :pint:
Whooops.... typing too fast for my brain then. I knew it was not Neil Gow, so why did I do that?
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Re: Don't Hit Me - but...

Post by Flavius »

Regarding the phrasing etc, I owe everyone an apology, for I was too hasty and careless in my wording:
Flavius wrote:
MTGuru wrote: I guess my current feeling is that if you're going to play ITM on recorder, you might as well play it as a recorder and work out how to adapt the tunes and ornamentation to the native fingering.
I've been so dying for an opportunity to drop this example in the Whistle Forum and get away with it :lol:
My writing "this example" without further qualification leaves the reader under the impression that this was provided as an example of ITM (STM in this case) played on the recorder, which of course it is not.

When I posted my reply, the thread was dealing with some differences and similarities in playing between whistles and recorders, and I thought the video would be useful in illustrating the point, being a recorder played with recorder technique by a professional. It had the added benefit of containing a tune that might be more recognizable to trad players/listeners than the repertoire usually associated to the instrument, and I felt this would help highlight the similarities and differences. Finally, it was not only played by professionals, but also professionally filmed and recorded so the quality was enough to make the listening useful (and hopefully enjoyable).

But, as noted, this is not an example of I/STM: this is an arrangement of a well-known Gow tune, by a classically-trained musician, played by an ensemble specializing in Early Music. My apologies again.
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Re: Don't Hit Me - but...

Post by pancelticpiper »

Flavius wrote: many feel the way (r______s) sound lends itself well to playing Trad. It seems that the repertoires of O'Carolan and Gow are sort of the common ground where Early Music and I/STM can meet
Yes Carolan compositions stand in an odd place in between Early Music and ITM and they work well with either treatment.

But when it comes to ITM per se (dance music and sean nos airs) I fully agree with Samuel Johnson, who commented:

"Sir, a person playing ITM upon a recorder is like a dog's walking on his hind legs. It is not done well; but you are surprised to find it done at all."
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Re: Don't Hit Me - but...

Post by cboody »

I don't know for a fact that the instruments used by Quadriga are Dream models, but as far as I am aware the Dream models are the only "crossover" renaissance recorder that actually have the full range of 2 plus octaves common to the Baroque recorder. Thus my supposition. I have been out out the recorder world for some time so my suppositions my be bad. Thanks for the informative post.

As to how the music is performed: Let's remember that Gow, along with most of his compatriots in Scotland, was a trained musician well aware of, and doubtless influenced by, the "classical" traditions that surrounded him. That is quite different from the Irish traditions as far as I know. So, coming to his music from the Early Music world might not be too far out of place.
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Re: Don't Hit Me - but...

Post by Loren »

For anyone interested, I see that Von Huene has posted some workshop pics to their website. A small number of pictures showing a few of the many, MANY steps involved in the production of their recorders. As an employee/apprentice, I never felt comfortable posting pictures of the tooling and processes during my time there, for reasons that should be obvious. But they have put up some photos, so take a look if you are so inclined.

Here's the link, Enjoy! http://www.vonhuene.com/Default.aspx?tabid=188

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Re: Don't Hit Me - but...

Post by david_h »

DrPhill wrote: I also felt that the middle section got a bit lost. But then what do I know? I am not really a musician yet.
Neither am I but (and ?) I agree with you. I always look forward to hearing what people do with the rhythm of the middle section but to me that was more like playing something different instead. Does a 'baroque ear' find the 'same start - different ending' structure of those phrases boring ? I liked the variations and harmony later though.

Played like that its not far from the sound of a low whistle is it ?
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Re: Don't Hit Me - but...

Post by DrPhill »

david_h wrote:Played like that its not far from the sound of a low whistle is it ?
At risk of being banned from this forum, I would say that I hear little difference. I have not got a very well trained ear, obviously. I enjoyed the beginning and the end of that piece a lot, the middle section left me cold.

What is it with this recorder-hate?
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Re: Don't Hit Me - but...

Post by ecohawk »

Gulp!!! Don't hit me indeed!

Well, since some others are outing themselves, I may as well (lemmings anyone) jump in. I too am one who moves between the world's of re*&%#er and whistle. Without hesitation, I can say that this choice has made me a better player of both.

Indeed it is an Adrianna Breukink instrument being played in the video mentioned above and it is modeled on the Dream series but is customized for the player. I've heard Adrianna speak about this series of instruments and own an alto in the commercial dream series for the very reason that it does indeed cover a full two octaves and a sixth.

I play Niel (Neil) Gow's Lament in both worlds and in different keys. The whistle helps develop speed while the instrument-that-shall-not-be-named helps me with breath control and dynamics. YMMV.


(hand shaking now). I would not bring anything other than a whistle to a session. However, I have brought whistles to re*&%#er events (they are a much more tolerant lot!) and have played both in mixed group settings or when playing solo for friends. If you're familiar with the term "horses for courses" you will understand.

The body of music available for whistles is vast compared to that for the "other" instrument which is what primarily attracted me to the whistle to begin with. Can I help it if I fell in love with ITM as well as Carolan?

I might add that I'm about to receive my first flute from Santa Claus. Now I'm to begin that learning process as well. My whistle playing has supposedly prepared me for this jump, if I can believe those on the Flute section of C&F.

God save me.

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Re: Don't Hit Me - but...

Post by R Small »

A few years ago I took some recorder lessons from the late Scott Reiss. Scott was a founding member of the Folger Consort and the folk group Hesperus. He was a world class recorder player and also a great penny whistle player. A veritable fountain of knowledge he was an expert on early music and various folk traditions from around the planet, especially ITM. He had a pretty sizable arsenal of recorders and whistles and loved them all equally. So I've never understood the low regard with which the recorder seems to be held by some folks on this forum. It might not be suitable for ITM (which is one reason why I took up the whistle) but it's perfect for early music, Baroque, Rennaisance, etc. I don't play much recorder these days but I still maintain a small stable and I keep an Aulos soprano within easy reach.
Last edited by R Small on Mon Dec 20, 2010 6:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Don't Hit Me - but...

Post by Feadoggie »

ecohawk wrote:Indeed it is an Adrianna Breukink instrument being played in the video mentioned above and it is modeled on the Dream series but is customized for the player.
Several individuals have posted on Internet sites that the instrument played by Angelika Huemer is a Ganassi model in F made by Monika Musch. After just a bit of searching, I found this on the Quadriga page on Facebook (doh!).
Nikolaus Newerkla wrote: The recorders are made by Monika Musch, Germany... Best, Nikolaus


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Re: Don't Hit Me - but...

Post by MTGuru »

I think the anti-recorder meme is something that just happens. It's a natural joke here on the Chiffboard, and good fun. And once these memes take hold they're very hard to get rid of.

Here's an anecdote that may surprise some of our British and Commonwealth friends who are used to thinking of recorder as that thing tortured by generations of schoolkids under the lasting spell of Arnold Dolmetsch.

I first discovered the recorder in the 10th grade (~15 years old) around 1967. I was the top symphonic wind player in my grade of around 700 students. One day I was reading a book of music history, and came upon a description of this thing called a "recorder". And I was fascinated, as I had never heard of a recorder before. Enquiring with my music teachers and friends, it turned out that most were unaware of the recorder, and those that were aware had never seen or handled one.

So I trotted down to my local music store. And lo and behold, they had one Dolmetsch bakelite soprano in stock for the occasional oddball customer. It took me an hour to learn the fingering, and I was off to the races. At school the next day I was an instant celebrity with my odd little instrument. Everyone wanted to hear it and try it. And jamming jazz riffs on the recorder turned out to be a lot of fun.

Soon another music friend came forward as a secret recorder player, and she and I began performing Telemann duets and such. Then one day we got a call from a local teacher named Eugene Reichenthal, who had just founded the Long Island Recorder Society. We began weekly rehearsals with a recorder ensemble of 6 or so players playing Renaissance, Baroque, and Modern repertoire, and we put on several concerts in the area.

In short, the point is that playing the recorder was a high prestige activity from the start, and it was nothing but a genuine and challenging instrument. I went on to play at university with our "Stellar Consort" (modeled after the Deller Consort). I studied recorder for a year at the Camerata School in Boston, and another year in graduate school under Thomas Binkley, including a master class with Frans Brüggen.

So whenever the r******r meme pops up here on the Chiffboard, I chuckle along with everyone else. But recorder was definitely my secret weapon for quick mastery of the Irish whistle. And I feel a bit sad for all the people whose experience of this wonderful instrument was apparently ruined by their early music education. :sniffle:
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Re: Don't Hit Me - but...

Post by MTGuru »

Feadoggie wrote:Several individuals have posted on Internet sites that the instrument played by Angelika Huemer is a Ganassi model in F made by Monika Musch.
I thought so. The "turnings" of the metal joint flange and the bell shape are pretty much give-aways of a Ganassi-modeled instrument. And the Quadriga instruments apparently handle up to that high E quite nicely.
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