A modest proposal...

[Ceili_whistle_man]

DrPhill,
I think Jim Stone just about summed it up in his explanation of ‘games’, but if you really want to hear some examples of one particular tune played by many different people, then I’ll give you a few examples.
The tune ‘Drowsy Maggie’ featured in the below deck party in the movie ‘Titanic’. Here are some examples of it being played by various folk. I didn’t pick Drowsy Maggie for any particular reason other than it is widely known and a few non ITM people might recognise it but not know where they know it from.
I took what came up in a random search on youtube, so there was no picking and choosing which was better and which was worse so here they are in no particular order.
As an exercise I’ll leave it to you first of all to see if you can tell which versions are straight out ITM and which ones aren’t and which players have a proper grasp on how to play the tune.

Driftwood http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ASav6TPI71Q

Dot Dash http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vh2j4vo4qaM

Daev300 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZfP9nNz0 ... re=related

Balzat family http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ubSAgyU02Yw

Tradschool http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JInitDp-7rU

Chieftains http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WQd51OItvTU

Hillar Bergmann http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V6t8US_m5d8

Neal Pointon http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JOOS1sFyw-U

Kasir http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X2q69C6hAqU

Red Horse Tavern http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=anDUXAnP0SI

[DrPhill]

Lots of good replies - I am enjoying and learning from this. Some specific responses:

@Kypfer: I can see where you are coming from, but a lot of folk here play whistle way better than I, and many of those set great store by ITM. One commented (different thread I think) that, although they did not particularly like ITM it was a useful discipline to learn. I was originally ignoring the concept, but a couple of recent threads prompted me to investigate further.

@Jim Stone: A very well reasoned post, and I agree that the idea of defining by exemplar is entirely valid. But it does shift the problem (as Sackbut noted) to which are the examples to follow.

@CrookedTune: Thanks for answering the questions. The answers are what I would have expected (hoped). Interestingly you would need to know more about the music than just listening to it. If you could not tell a slavish copy from the original by listening, then you might mistakenly assign the copy to the ITM category by mistake. Or have I misunderstood. I would also question the assertion that computer generated music can never be music. There is skill and creativity required in generating the computer algorithm, that will reflect in the quality of the output. But that is a debate for another forum.

@cboody: Yep, tongue in cheek and indirectly related to Ireland. A logical (and unpalatable) attempt to solve a problem.

@Mr.Gumby: A well present view, but then without any membership cards or other definitions, how do we know that we are all talking about the same thing? If two people both claim to be ITM, and claim that the other is not how is an outsider able to judge the veracity of the claim, and know which style to emulate?

@Ceili_whistle_man: Thankyou. I have listened briefly to those, and feel unsure as to which might be more ITM than others. Some made me tap my feet (Dot Dash, Daev300 and The Chieftains IIRC), the others did not. I will listen again to them this evening.

Thanks as always, and keep the comments coming.

[hoopy mike]

@Ceili_whistle_man: Thankyou. I have listened briefly to those, and feel unsure as to which might be more ITM than others. Some made me tap my feet (Dot Dash, Daev300 and The Chieftains IIRC), the others did not. I will listen again to them this evening.

Maybe a poll with the above links and the question, "Which rendition is closest to ITM?" would be a useful exercise....

[hans]

Here are some butterflies caught in the tube. I know many will groan "Not The Butterfly again!", but it is a great tune, even though it has been misused so often. Or perhaps it has been for other than trad styles precisely because it is such a great tune. So the following links are not random, but what I liked and judged to be more traditional in sound and style. Of course this is totally subjective and comes from someone not immersed or grown up in ITM, so I am wrong to call anything "trad"! Someone steeped in ITM can comment on it, especially if any of the clips are way out. Still, you can find a number of ways how this tune is approached, interpreted and brought to life.
In no particular order:
1. Tommy Potts: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cNqqsAo48hQ
2. Bothy Band: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=27Sn-thv4iM
3. Ryan Duns: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5FKdWfq1fRU
4. abraxas123: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M2xzH7pVf5s
5. Jody Hale + Rich: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mzvREUpbU-I


There are tons of other "Butterfly" clips out there, a vast spectrum of quality and styles, see for yourself.

[jim stone]

@Jim Stone: A very well reasoned post, and I agree that the idea of defining by exemplar is entirely valid. But it does shift the problem (as Sackbut noted) to which are the examples to follow

To which I gave an answer, ask the 'old guys,' the experienced people widely said to be accomplished
in the tradition. Ask them for examples. In jazz I would ask recognized jazz greats, people widely said
to be among the best, who I should listen to. There are some very accomplished people in ITM posting
here. Ask them. At a certain point this does suppose one has the intelligence to find out who is
widely regarded as accomplished. This is good enough to get one going, unless one is indulging in skepticism for its own sake.

[DrPhill]

Here are some butterflies caught in the tube. I know many will groan "Not The Butterfly again!", but it is a great tune, even though it has been misused so often. Or perhaps it has been for other than trad styles precisely because it is such a great tune. So the following links are not random, but what I liked and judged to be more traditional in sound and style. Of course this is totally subjective and comes from someone not immersed or grown up in ITM, so I am wrong to call anything "trad"! Someone steeped in ITM can comment on it, especially if any of the clips are way out. Still, you can find a number of ways how this tune is approached, interpreted and brought to life.
In no particular order:
1. Tommy Potts: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cNqqsAo48hQ
2. Bothy Band: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=27Sn-thv4iM
3. Ryan Duns: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5FKdWfq1fRU
4. abraxas123: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M2xzH7pVf5s
5. Jody Hale + Rich: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mzvREUpbU-I


There are tons of other "Butterfly" clips out there, a vast spectrum of quality and styles, see for yourself.

Thanks for the links Hans. I liked some of those more than others. I actually enjoyed two on your longer list (when it was ten links) more than most on your shorter list. I most enjoyed a version of the Butterfly by Celtic Women which is not on your list atall. Which are more ITM, which are less? I have no clue. I have no measuring stick. I do not even have a vague definition. I find it odd that so many are passionate about ITM but that no-one can define what it is.

@Jim Stone
I can understand the 'learn from the masters', and even empathise with the need to ask the 'old men' who the masters are.
I would like to know what ITM is, but not so much that I want to listen to hours of dance music. If that is the only way to answer the question then I will happily live without an answer. Without an understanding of the term, though, any discussion that relies on my understanding ITM is rendered largely meaningless to me, as if I had replaced those three letters with '???'. Which is a shame, but never mind.

[hans]

The Celtic Woman Butterfly came up all the time, seems to be hugely popular, with 3.7Mill clicks.
Celtic Woman: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OXanHvrjQO0
I don't like it, it does not flow for me.

I wonder which of the links I took out you liked better? Perhaps this with low whistle and harp?
TinWhistler + Ulla: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UzlyHma7LyI
It is quite nice, but the whistle part was put on later, and I can hear it. So it failed my criterion for traditional folk music to be "life".

Here is a "Celtic" butterfly, which shows its distance from the Irish kind methinks:
Orison: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKwg8p1qZ9U

Here is a "classical" polished butterfly:
Silver Roots: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TKkeXBY-emA

And an unpolished low whistle duet:
Michael Copeland & G.Robin Smith: http://www.youtube.co/watch?v=rDWOtpTUj84

[benhall.1]

@Ceili_whistle_man: Thankyou. I have listened briefly to those, and feel unsure as to which might be more ITM than others. Some made me tap my feet (Dot Dash, Daev300 and The Chieftains IIRC), the others did not. I will listen again to them this evening.

Maybe a poll with the above links and the question, "Which rendition is closest to ITM?" would be a useful exercise....

<<Personal curmudgeon mode on>>I don't think so. Mainly because there was just one of those clips that struck me as being even vaguely musical, let alone trad.<<Personal curmudgeon mode off>>

[hans]

@Ceili_whistle_man: Thankyou. I have listened briefly to those, and feel unsure as to which might be more ITM than others. Some made me tap my feet (Dot Dash, Daev300 and The Chieftains IIRC), the others did not. I will listen again to them this evening.

Maybe a poll with the above links and the question, "Which rendition is closest to ITM?" would be a useful exercise....

<<Personal curmudgeon mode on>>I don't think so. Mainly because there was just one of those clips that struck me as being even vaguely musical, let alone trad.<<Personal curmudgeon mode off>>

So: which one? Besides, you are a curmudgeon. Or you ain't. it's not a mode. And it's not for you to decide to be or not to be a curmudgeon. But you are.

[DrPhill]

I think that I am listening for what I enjoy, not for ITM authenticity.

The Celtic Woman Butterfly came up all the time, seems to be hugely popular, with 3.7Mill clicks.
Celtic Woman: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OXanHvrjQO0
I don't like it, it does not flow for me.

Perhaps it was the visuals that influenced me. I should have listened instead of looked? I enjoyed it because I could relate the movement to the music. Maybe if I had to play along with it I would discover that it did not flow for me either.

I wonder which of the links I took out you liked better? Perhaps this with low whistle and harp?
TinWhistler + Ulla: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UzlyHma7LyI
It is quite nice, but the whistle part was put on later, and I can hear it. So it failed my criterion for traditional folk music to be "life".

Ah, my ears are not so well trained as to hear the overlaying. I liked it, but maybe because I like harp/whistle combination.

Here is a "Celtic" butterfly, which shows its distance from the Irish kind methinks:
Orison: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKwg8p1qZ9U

I cannot say how far this has drifted from tradition, but it sounded like 'lift music' to me. It faded into the background before it had finished the first turn round.

Here is a "classical" polished butterfly:
Silver Roots: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TKkeXBY-emA

I liked that one. Is that 'classical' as in 'a classic example of ITM' or as in 'as played by classically trained musicians'. I liked it but it seemed very 'clean', 'precise', or maybe even a touch 'clinical'.

And an unpolished low whistle duet:
Michael Copeland & G.Robin Smith: http://www.youtube.co/watch?v=rDWOtpTUj84

I was really hoping to like that one, but I am afraid that I did not. I admire Michael's whistle making skills, but I could not listen past the lack of synchronisation between the two players.

I guess I am not ITM material then.............

<<Personal curmudgeon mode on>>I don't think so. Mainly because there was just one of those clips that struck me as being even vaguely musical, let alone trad.<<Personal curmudgeon mode off>>

Go on, tell us.......

[Mr.Gumby]

I guess I am not ITM material then...........

The only way to find out is to listen to traditional musicians, good ones. Not abominable tripe from youtube.

[hans]

Here is a "classical" polished butterfly:
Silver Roots: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TKkeXBY-emA

I liked that one. Is that 'classical' as in 'a classic example of ITM' or as in 'as played by classically trained musicians'. I liked it but it seemed very 'clean', 'precise', or maybe even a touch 'clinical'.

'as played by classically trained musicians'

[benhall.1]

<<Personal curmudgeon mode on>>I don't think so. Mainly because there was just one of those clips that struck me as being even vaguely musical, let alone trad.<<Personal curmudgeon mode off>>

So: which one? Besides, you are a curmudgeon. Or you ain't. it's not a mode. And it's not for you to decide to be or not to be a curmudgeon. But you are.

I take that as a very high, and serious compliment, hans.



[And no, I'm not going to say which one. So bleugh!]

[benhall.1]

I would just like to add [haughty mode] that, whilst lesser mortals may well be restricted to either being a curmudgeon or not, Ay-y-y ... Ay CAN turn curmudgeon mode on ... or off. It's a skill which I've been honing for over 50 years.

[sniff]

[DrPhill]

I would just like to add [haughty mode] that, whilst lesser mortals may well be restricted to either being a curmudgeon or not, Ay-y-y ... Ay CAN turn curmudgeon mode on ... or off. It's a skill which I've been honing for over 50 years.

[sniff]

Turning it off?