Bottom Dropped Out

[Steampacket]

"I personally know of seven, keyed Olwell flutes that have changed hands in the past year, all at prices well over $5K. So it is hard to generalize. I might add that the majority were private sales that were never publicized here, or in the auction houses or eBay." Herb.

Yes, I think this is how it always has been. Sought after instruments can often change hands amongst musicians by word of mouth without the need of being advertised.

Secondhand flutes and pipes by modern makers such as Olwell, Murray, Wilkes, Wooff, Williams, Koehler, Quinn, Froment seem to sell very quickly without any noticable drop in price these days when they are put on offer, as experienced musicians know the quality is extremely high. There is indeed less money about, but instruments by the makers mentioned above still command top price.

[Cubitt]

If Olwell flutes are so wonderful, why would seven of them change hands within a year? That seems incredible to me. I wouldn't think there were seven people in the entire world who in combination 1. played ITM, 2. gave a hoot about Olwell flutes, 3. thought they were worth $5k, 4. had $5k to spend, and 5. just happened to be in the market for one all within the same relative timeframe.

On top of this, we have to consider that seven owners all decided that these wonderful and expensive flutes for which they had to wait 6-10 years were now expendible. For what? Money? Another flute? Makes no sense to me.

[Lars Larry Mór Mott]

Maybe they realized after the 6 year wait they didn't sound better at all (or maybe even worse) in spite of getting the flute of their dreams? Also it never stops amazing me how many people with more money than wits there are

[Julia Delaney]

Keyed Olwell flutes, especially cocus, play a lot better, and are much rarer, than antique flutes that are commanding high prices. I don't think it is at all witless for somebody to have bought a set of Jeff Wooff pipes (now worth $15,000-20,000), or in 1920 to have bought a Gibson Lloyd Loar mandolin (now worth $300,000), or for somebody in Cremona to have bought an instrument from Stradivari ($1,000,000). Even a c.1900 Jeffries concertina costs about $10,000 now. Instruments of outstanding quality will always find ready buyers and will always appreciate in value.

A cocus Olwell worth $7,000 on the secondary market is still a bargain when compared to some of the other vintage instruments mentioned. In this case the maker is still alive (as is Jeff Wooff), which lowers the perception of rarity. Cocus wood, however, is becoming increasingly rare.

As for the reason behind the sale of such instruments, people change and their financial situations change. Nobody ever loses when selling such a top-quality instrument. People do buy top-end instruments thinking they will play better on them, and in fact they often do. Granted, sometimes they don't. But that doesn't seem to imply a lack of brains. A lack of discipline or intent perhaps.

[Cubitt]

Do I detect a whiff of jealousy or bitterness running through this thread? A soupçon of envy perhaps?

Certainly not on my part. I have what I consider to be as good a flute as exists. I wouldn't sell it if I had nothing to eat and nowhere to live. Some things you simply do not part with. I guess it's possible (though not probable) that owners or buyers of Olwells are collectors rather than players, but if so, they are taking a big risk. The interest in these flutes is relatively recent, and IMO, Olwells will only have value as a musical instrument, not as a valued antique or piece of art. If and when the interest in ITM wanes, antique flutes will still hold value as antiques, but Olwell's flutes will dramatically lose value. The speculator will, of course, wager that I am wrong or that the value will hold long enough to show a profit on resale. We'll have to see. Still, I find it remarkable that seven of his flutes changed hands in a single year. I expect that the sellers at best broke even on the sales, but I don't really know and consider it beyond the point, anyway.

[Nanohedron]

If Olwell flutes are so wonderful, why would seven of them change hands within a year?

Considering that the name Olwell has become a byword for quality and sought-after ITM tone (and rightly, I might add, although of course they cannot be to everyone's tastes, so why not sell it in that case?), IMO you preface your question with a misdirection. Have you ever played one at all?

I wouldn't think there were seven people in the entire world who in combination 1. played ITM, 2. gave a hoot about Olwell flutes, 3. thought they were worth $5k, 4. had $5k to spend...

Out of an estimated 6.98 billion souls on this planet, those seven don't loom so large. And there you go with "give a hoot about". That's two jabs out of you. One is tempted to think you have an agenda.

...and 5. just happened to be in the market for one all within the same relative timeframe.

I agree that that part seems remarkable. Something about an economy comes to mind, just for one plausible explanation.

On top of this, we have to consider that seven owners all decided that these wonderful and expensive flutes for which they had to wait 6-10 years were now expendible. For what? Money? Another flute? Makes no sense to me.

Maybe they realized after the 6 year wait they didn't sound better at all (or maybe even worse) in spite of getting the flute of their dreams? Also it never stops amazing me how many people with more money than wits there are

Mr_Blackwood strikes a reasonable note. And it's also worth pointing out that some people do indeed have the means to be flute collectors, and as Olwells are in the ITM context well sought-after, it's hard to go wrong with Olwells if you think of them as investments (and unfortunately it seems that some people do indeed buy flutes for just such speculative purposes. Rather mercenary, perhaps, but there you have it): IOW there will always be a buyer for yours if you put it on the block; it doesn't take much extra acumen beyond buying the thing to successfully unload an Olwell at a range of prices.

As to the whys and wherefors, you'd have to ask the sellers. Speculative assumptions born of our various incomprehensions get us nowhere, and seven such sales, especially in a year of hard times like this one, are certainly not indicative of a sweeping emperor's-new-clothes revelation about the quality of a particular make. Olwells have long been tried, tested, proven, and become the flute of choice for a number of great ITM players (whom it would be ludicrous to suggest are ignorant of what is a good flute) so I suggest to you that there is nothing wanting whatsoever in Olwells on their own merits. Those of us who have owned and played them will not dignify such insinuations by taking them seriously, so the insinuator might want to save his or her breath.

[Cubitt]

Those of us who have owned and played them will not dignify such insinuations by taking them seriously, so the insinuator might want to save his or her breath.

It seems you have done exactly that, and to no avail I might add. I have no problem with Olwell flutes. They are just fine, although not so exceptional IMO as to rate the price or the wait, but that was not my point and I think you know that. I just find it fascinating that such a coveted flute changes hands so readily. Your citing how many people there are in the world is without merit, as you no doubt realize. ITM is a niche market and flute is even more so. The appeal of owning an Olwell probably accounts for fewer than 100 people globally. I'm guessing, of course, If I knew this for certain, I wouldn't need to post in this thread. But I think mine is a reasonable speculation.

So next time before you go to all the trouble to isolate quotes and grace us all with what you will or will not dignify, you might simply ask. You have been off the mark a lot lately.

[Nanohedron]

You have been off the mark a lot lately.

Have I really? I can only go by how you couch your statements.

[jim stone]

I think Olwells are the best flutes I've ever played, FWIW. Pat O is some
sort of genius.

A fair number of people have more than one (e.g. me)
and, given the demand, one can make literally thousands selling an Olwell, a great deal more
than one paid for it. Under the circumstances, a number of these flutes for sale (especially in
hard times) and at a high price is to be expected.

[Cubitt]

You have been off the mark a lot lately.

Have I really? I can only go by how you couch your statements.

Yes, you have. See Jim Stone's reply above. He is responding to my query. You were simply copping an attitude. How my statements were couched, indeed! Pot calling the kettle black, sez I.

[Nanohedron]

You haven't convinced me. But I think we can move on and let everyone interpret as they may.

[Denny]

b-b-but we luvs bickering, we do

[Nanohedron]

b-b-but we luvs bickering, we do

Yes, I know, Denny. You can always ignore me.

[Denny]

and miss out on the drama, Shirley?


'sides, I'm a student of debate technique!

[Nanohedron]

'sides, I'm a student of debate technique!

Well, I'm sure I fail at that. Do carry on.