Just wondering

[Cubitt]

Jim, on Heathery Breeze, Matt uses a Bb flute on only two tracks. On Drowsie Maggie, he starts on C, whereas on a D flute, I would start on E, only two whole steps higher. Add to that the fact that the key he uses is within the range of a keyed D flute, and you can see why it does not jump out at me that he is using a flute in a lower key. Plus, Drowsie Maggie is usually fast and bouncy. Playing it like an air, by iself, makes the tune sound lower and more melancholy. I've been playing that version for years and never realized until I checked today that I was playing it higher than Matt, since I already knew the tune. The clip you offered was much more immediately recognizable as a flute in a lower key.

[I.D.10-t]

Bb (high and low) F and Eb (piccolo and tenor) band flutes were used for some time, if they played well, or if you had one from old band days, why not? Course those were often high pitch and wouldn't play well with others. I have always thought a fully keyed F flute would be fun to play for comfort reasons and to try out a keyed flute but really lessons would be a better investment.

Really, why did D and G become such common key in ITM?

[jiminos]

... I've been playing that version for years and never realized until I checked today that I was playing it higher than Matt, since I already knew the tune. ....

can't help it.... you said you didn't realize you played it in a higher key... but earlier you imply there is nothing wrong with your hearing when it comes to discerning a D from a flute in another key.... this sounds to me like maybe your pitch discernment is not as excellent as you would have us believe....

just sayin...

back to our regularly scheduled thread.... and on that.... seems to me that if Mr. Molloy wants to use a Bb or an Eb in a recording of an ITM piece, then there is a valid use for it.... frankly, do we really need to know Molloy's reasoning? Maybe he likes the timbre.... again.... who cares? for me, the issue would be... is the piece enjoyable? no more. no less.

If you have no use for anything other than a D when playing ITM.... very cool! i suppose a person could go their entire life playing ITM only in D, G, Am or Em using nothing but a D flute and not be the lesser for it.... by the same token.... a person could play ITM their entire life and never touch a D flute, i suppose.... would they be the lesser for it?

going to find my tea now.


be well,

jim

[Cubitt]

... I've been playing that version for years and never realized until I checked today that I was playing it higher than Matt, since I already knew the tune. ....

can't help it.... you said you didn't realize you played it in a higher key... but earlier you imply there is nothing wrong with your hearing when it comes to discerning a D from a flute in another key.... this sounds to me like maybe your pitch discernment is not as excellent as you would have us believe....
be well,

jim

Jim, you need to read a LOT more carefully. But to address your point, I did not learn the tune from Matt; I simply started playing it the way he does in the key I already played it in. I am quite certain, if you've heard the piece, you had no idea what key he played it in or on what kind of flute and neither did I.

[Aanvil]

Hmmm.... Mr. Malloy's setting of Drowsy Maggy is somewhat different from the general session version.

I like his take.

Oh, I just purchased an vintage Eb Hawkes and I played it tonight at session. It's like a little sports car.

Love it.

[dunnp]

The firsttime I heard Molloy play a bflat was on the Homeruler on some cheiftens lp.
My ear knew something was different. I soon figured out to play along I needed a Bflat whistle.
My ear learned to recognize the lower tonality of the bflat.
If your ear did not itsbecause you haven't spent enough time listening.
I just listened to Kevin Crawford's clips on his new site. I wasn't paying that much attention but my ear recognized the last clip as being as being played on a c flute. The tune is the steampacket as far as I remember.
Have you taken the time to go listen to flat pipers. Your ear will know.
Not always one hundred percent, i can easily be fooled.
Last year I heard Eliot Grasso playing from far away and thought ooh nice he has his flat set. When i got closer I realized he was in d, but his set was sounding so nice and mellow and not screaming like most concert sets I hear, my ear was tricked.
I also can recognize when a flute is not conical bored sometimes. My ear goes, huh something is off and there you go someone is playing a boehm.

Train your ears!
If you listen to Irish music carefully and critically you will recognize. It is a skill and it can be practiced.

As kmag said go listen to Harry Bradley,s Errant elbows site.
Its a wealth of music knowledge and has tracks on both concert and flat pipes.
Educate your ears to the difference.

Listen to the Molloy back album. Its been donkeys years but I believe there is a d track amid all the eflattery (eflatulence?) . It stands out.

[Peter Duggan]

Think you've got 'giveaway' tone colours with instruments like simple system flutes, whistles and recorders, meaning that the notes tend to have distinctive sounds associated with the fingerings. Not saying it doesn't happen with Boehm flutes etc. but it's probably harder to spot with their more homogenised sound. Also 'giveaway' fingerings (yes, even unseen!), especially with regard to cross-fingering patterns and ornamentation. It's something I first noticed many years ago with recorders in feeling the 'fingered' key as well as the 'pitched' one while listening, but applies equally to other similar instruments. Which is why I spotted an F# whistle playing in F# straightaway (assuming no digital manipulation of a recorded F or G!) when someone asked about an unusually-pitched clip the other day, and knew it wasn't just skillful playing in 'written E' on an E, even though that would also have been within range. And why I think dunnp's ear is telling him similar things...

[Gordon]

Few would argue that there is no discernible difference between differently pitched flutes (or conical v. cylindrical, for that matter). That our ears cannot always immediately identify the exact difference is undoubtedly true as well - I get Cubitt's point here - even if we nit-pick examples where it's more obvious than others. I think we've all pulled out our D flutes at some point or another and tried to play along with a CD, only to find the player used an Eb...

But, as to the initial wondering - yes, alternately pitched flutes are useful, add different tonal colors, but - ultimately - yes, they're a luxury. An often useful luxury... They are only not a luxury in areas where there are Eb sessions (or other pitched sessions) - either own such a flute, or don't play.

This thread is oddly similar to the keys/no keys thread (where Cubitt - I believe? - was on the 'key' side). Are they useful? Absolutely. Necessary? Often, but depends. More expensive? No doubt. A luxury? Hmmm... Now I've gone full circle.

[Denny]

da place make me dizzy sometimes, there's just so much circling about

[I.D.10-t]

It kind of makes me wonder how common it is to take a D tune and jump it on up to G. While practicing I'll sometimes jump something like the Lonesome jig from D to G and then up to D. Course you wouldn't do that in a session, but other times?

[dunnp]

Any of the tough fiddle tunes in A sound nice down in G.
The Contradiction, the Hurricane.

I like Humours of Tulla in C, Star of Munster and other am reels in Gm.

Today I'm trying Winnie Hayes starting on a and using the low c key.

All on a d.

Martin Hayes plays alot of stuff downwards, both by retuning and using standard tuning, as does the fiddle from Teada.

It's refreshing to be out of the mindset of session playing and settings and tunes and d g and the related minors.

[Cubitt]

This thread is oddly similar to the keys/no keys thread (where Cubitt - I believe? - was on the 'key' side). Are they useful? Absolutely. Necessary? Often, but depends. More expensive? No doubt. A luxury? Hmmm... Now I've gone full circle.

You're right, Gordon; I do favor a keyed flute. I've just learned The Boys of Malin. When I heard the tune and decided I wanted to learn it, I did not know it was in A and I would need to play G#. In fact, I have Jenny's Chickens on deck, which is also in A. I use my keys constantly and if someone did a thread like this one on keys, that's what I would say.

So far, some have stated where alternate keys could be useful, but none have really said how they personally make use of such flutes. Aanvil says he just played a session with an Eb flute. I wonder how he made that work unless it was an Eb session, which I've never heard of in our parts, but he is much more the session goer than I. (By the way, Aanvil, we have played Matt's version of Drowsy Maggie together).

Let's remember that this is not a pro or con debate. The question was simply why.

[crookedtune]

Honest input: I have an Eb and an F flute, and keep them both because I really, really like them. I like the timbre, speed, agility and overall experience of playing them. They're a blast.

Neither has been played in a session, and they might never be. So what? Sessions account for maybe five percent of my playing time. For me, they're an easily justified indulgence.

[Cubitt]

Honest input: I have an Eb and an F flute, and keep them both because I really, really like them. I like the timbre, speed, agility and overall experience of playing them. They're a blast.

Neither has been played in a session, and they might never be. So what? Sessions account for maybe five percent of my playing time. For me, they're an easily justified indulgence.

Fair enough. Thanks.

Any others?

[dunnp]

The why is in the where ? ,no.
Maybe you should sell your two Burns flutes and use the money to buy a bflat or c from Casey. All wood no slide no keys or other luxuries. Three d flutes may be a luxury, no.
Some might say playing Boys of Malin on a bamboo E is less expensive than the luxury of a g sharp key.

All of my examples are from real playing experiences.