The Myth of Musical Instinct

[chaos97]

I'm not sure if it totally relates, but this topic brought this video to mind: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ne6tB2KiZuk
For those that are unfamiliar with Bobby McFerrin, he had a hit in the late 80's with the song "Don't Worry, Be Happy" which i have heard he is now completely sick of & will not perform anymore. Anyway, the video has always stuck in my mind & I think brings up some really interesting points about the inherent musicality that many actually have but for some reason, in practice gets lost - even for musicians. I sometimes feel like the idea of learning & practicing is working towards a goal of bringing out some kind of subconscious ability, without having the physicality of the instrument or thoughts of the music get in the way.

[Tunborough]

According to David Shenk, in his book The Genius in All of Us, Michael Jordan wasn't good enough to make the basketball team in his second year of highschool. This annoyed him so much that he started working on his skills, and working hard. (Some might say, obsessively.) By the third year of university, he was ready for the NBA.

Ted Williams, arguably the greatest baseball hitter ever, started working on one thing from the age of 6 or 7: to be the greatest baseball hitter ever. He worked hard. (Some might say, obsessively.) No one since has hit above 0.400 over a whole season.

Also recommended is Malcom Gladwell's book, Outliers.

Seems to me, as Anyanka has already pointed out, there's no mystery where talent comes from. The mystery is where the obsession comes from.

[MadmanWithaWhistle]

I think the key for me was finding an instrument it was fun to be bad at. I had played classical and jazz piano for 10 years prior to picking up my dad's old Gen D he got in dublin when he was my age. Whereas piano was a constant feeling of not being good enough, whistle was enjoyable because just goofing around on the thing was great fun. I didn't care how good I was, and as a consequence I played it a lot. "A lot" devolved into "constantly," and before I knew it, I was pretty good. So in my eyes, "talent" is the ability to have fun and really get to know an instrument, and see where it takes you. "Professional" musicians aren't necessarily the best portrait of "talent" simply because there's a certain personality that leads one to play an instrument professionally. Is there somewhere a guitarist as good as Jimmy Page that doesn't play music except for his own enjoyment? I'm almost certain.

[highland-piper]

Seems to me, as Anyanka has already pointed out, there's no mystery where talent comes from. The mystery is where the obsession comes from.

That's brilliant.

Is there somewhere a guitarist as good as Jimmy Page that doesn't play music except for his own enjoyment? I'm almost certain.

I doubt such a thing exists for two reasons.

1) Because Page plays guitar for a living, he does it all the time. A person who did not do it for a living would have some other job, which would mean he would not have the same opportunity to devote himself to guitar for hours every day.

2) Gigs are very motivational. Nothing will get you to work something out than the fact that you're going to be doing it in public in a few days.

Watch "It Might Get Loud." It's a documentary about The Edge, Jack White, and Jimmy Page. The three of them have something in common. They each play guitar all the time, and have since they were kids. I've met a lot of violinists who play just for fun over the years, but not one has been as good as someone who studied violin in college. The number of hours of practice doesn't begin to compare.

[StevieJ]

I'm prepared to keep an open mind about most of all this, with one notable exception: the "critical periods" bit. It seems to me that the rest of us can just never catch up with those who put a lot of time into learning an instrument when they were between the ages of four and eight. Get over it, everybody. Show me some adults, or one adult, who took up the violin as a first instrument over the age of 30 and was fit to play violin concertos with major orchestras within four or five years, or indeed ever, and perhaps I'll open my mind about this too.

Menuhin performed Tchaikovsky's violin concerto in Paris before he was eight, if I interpret the timeline on menuhin.org correctly. No disrespect to Dr John the late-developing keyboard wizard and his Grammies or the vocal prowess of Patti Smith cited in the article, but there is really no comparison.

[MTGuru]

I'd say the actual cut-off age is a bit later, Steve, around puberty, and parallels the well-document timelines for second language acquisition. But your point is that there are developmental issues which just are. And exceptions are ... well, exceptions, because (most) humans aren't robots.

I think also some instruments are more developmentally sensitive than others, and there's a reason that most Suzuki instruction focuses on violin and piano.

[highland-piper]

I'm prepared to keep an open mind about most of all this, with one notable exception: the "critical periods" bit. It seems to me that the rest of us can just never catch up with those who put a lot of time into learning an instrument when they were between the ages of four and eight. Get over it, everybody. Show me some adults, or one adult, who took up the violin as a first instrument over the age of 30 and was fit to play violin concertos with major orchestras within four or five years, or indeed ever, and perhaps I'll open my mind about this too.

Menuhin performed Tchaikovsky's violin concerto in Paris before he was eight, if I interpret the timeline on menuhin.org correctly. No disrespect to Dr John the late-developing keyboard wizard and his Grammies or the vocal prowess of Patti Smith cited in the article, but there is really no comparison.

Recent research by neuroscientists indicates that the synapses have a coating that lubricates and facilitates the changes in brain structure necessary to learn new skills. It starts going away around the age of 17 and is gone at about 20.

So if you (or anyone) tries to learn a new skill after the age of 20 it is much more difficult than if you do it at 15. The more similar the skill you are learning, the less difficult. So as you say, if someone has learned /a/ musical instrument as a child, then learning another at the age of 30 is not nearly as difficult as it is for someone who did not learn as a child.

There is video of Menuhin performing that work at age of 8 (or whatever). It's amazing to see him reach up with his left hand and hit these high notes perfectly in tune. I've known a lot of violinists, but I've never met one who knew anyone who played in even a minor local orchestra (beyond a community orchestra) who learned as an adult.

I know a woman who plays bagpipes at a very high level who started at about the age of 20. But it's definitely not common, and there's way less material to learn in highland bagpipes than there is in classical violin.

In addition to the sheer advantage of a youthful brain, kids have more time. My wife says that in middle school she used to come home from school, hurry through her homework, and then practice violin for the rest of the evening. And then in college she would practice two to four hours a day, with lessons twice a week. It's really hard to make up for that kind of lost time when you have a job, a family, and so forth.

[An Draighean]

Recent research by neuroscientists indicates that the synapses have a coating that lubricates and facilitates the changes in brain structure necessary to learn new skills. It starts going away around the age of 17 and is gone at about 20.

Thank goodness I didn't know that when I took up uilleann pipes at age 56! Yes, I know I'll never be another Seamus Ennis, Willy Clancy, or Leo Rowsome, but I sure enjoy playing them anyway and feel that I'm making definite progress.

For that matter, I've had a couple of different careers after 17-20 and have done quite well with them, thank you. I guess persistence and stubbornness can still make up for a lot of lost youth.

[Cayden]

An Dreghean,

Keep at it lad and disregard the negativity. As long as you are enjoying yourself, your instrument, and the music, each moment spent playing will bring you happiness. The Uillean pipes are certainly among the most difficult instruments to play well, and I find them to also produce some of the most incredible music. Certainly Uillean pipes are identifiable as anchor of the Irish Trad sound.

Cayden

[highland-piper]

Thank goodness I didn't know that when I took up uilleann pipes at age 56!

Perhaps I wasn't clear. I took up highland pipes at 39 -- I'm not sure there's a big difference between 39 and 56 when it comes to learning new stuff.

The point isn't that you can't do it. Far from that. The point is that it's harder than it is for people in their youth.

To me, finding out the facts of how our brains learn was very motivational. The message is that you can do it, and there are no limits to how far you can go. As long as you have good instruction and you practice, then you can make progress, and if you can continue to make progress, then it's "to infinity and beyond." After 1000 or so hours of determined practice, nearly anyone should sound decent.

The progress just won't be as fast as the people who start at 13.

I have a buddy who started playing Highland pipes at about the age of 70. He's great. He's never going to be a star, but he's a better piper this year than he was last. What more can anyone ask for?

People don't stop learning because they get old. They get old because they stop learning.

[maki]

Thank goodness I didn't know that when I took up uilleann pipes at age 56!

Perhaps I wasn't clear. I took up highland pipes at 39 -- I'm not sure there's a big difference between 39 and 56 when it comes to learning new stuff.

The point isn't that you can't do it. Far from that. The point is that it's harder than it is for people in their youth.

To me, finding out the facts of how our brains learn was very motivational. The message is that you can do it, and there are no limits to how far you can go. As long as you have good instruction and you practice, then you can make progress, and if you can continue to make progress, then it's "to infinity and beyond." After 1000 or so hours of determined practice, nearly anyone should sound decent.

The progress just won't be as fast as the people who start at 13.

I have a buddy who started playing Highland pipes at about the age of 70. He's great. He's never going to be a star, but he's a better piper this year than he was last. What more can anyone ask for?

People don't stop learning because they get old. They get old because they stop learning.

[An Draighean]

The point isn't that you can't do it. Far from that. The point is that it's harder than it is for people in their youth.
...

People don't stop learning because they get old. They get old because they stop learning.

I agree on both counts!

[ubizmo]

In addition to the sheer advantage of a youthful brain, kids have more time. My wife says that in middle school she used to come home from school, hurry through her homework, and then practice violin for the rest of the evening. And then in college she would practice two to four hours a day, with lessons twice a week. It's really hard to make up for that kind of lost time when you have a job, a family, and so forth.

This isn't to be underestimated.

Stan Getz says that when he got serious about sax, he stopped going to school and practiced eight hours a day for a year. After that, he started getting gigs and he says he "never practiced again." Well...once he started getting gigs he was playing pretty much constantly, so he was still spending a lot of time every day on the horn.

How many of us can arrange our lives to practice eight hours a day for a year?

That said, I have found that I learn much faster when I do frequent brief intervals of practice, as opposed to less frequent long practice sessions. The learning takes place between practice sessions. I got a trad flute long ago and found it discouragingly difficult to play anything on. But I peg away at it in ten minute bursts. I find that even though at the end of one practice session I'm terrible, I somehow have mysteriously improved when I start the next one.

[Gobae]

I thought that the gist of it was that it's never too late to earn a skill.

BINGO! After reading the excerpt linked, I headed over to my local library last night and actually borrowed "Guitar Zero". I'm about 1/2 way through and there is a ton of really interesting info in there.

For me, one of the key insights has been that most of our information about how we learn comes from studies that have been very limited in one fashion or another (lack of duplication, done on animals not humans, sample size, scope, etc). So a ton of conclusions, "facts", and common belief are that is well known, but not well supported. Also, where new information is available he also cites those studies. For instance, two new studies show a linear decline in learning capacity with age, not windows of opportunity. Others clearly point to adults, not children learning new tasks faster although a child's persistence and access to unfettered practice time overcome this to the point it appears the opposite. (As a side note a study in my field [computers and education] also showed that adults, not children, were more capable of learning new computer skills despite the popular notion that because kids grow up with them "they know all about computers".)

Also, this book clearly indicates that there are a variety of reasons for musical ability not just those touted by the "talent vs practice" camps that have sprung up.

But overall the thrust of this book is exactly what Maki said. If you're willing to put in the time the typical person can learn anything to an average/competent level. The window of opportunity is not closed, it's just not as big as it once was and you may need to put in some effort and learn differently than if you were younger.

[Nanocircus]

I think that a large part of musical talent is finding the right instrument for you. When I was in my teens I tried desperately to get at least somewhat good at playing the guitar, I practised for hours a day for several years and got absolutely NOWHERE. Now in my mid twenties after having decided I could no longer bear being one of those people that cant play an instrument, I took up the flute (started with a boehm) and I found that the instrument made more sense to me then the guitar ever did. I quickly gravitated to Trad Irish music and I find that the flute feels more like an extension of myself than the guitar ever did, I am able to express myself better on it and best of all its more fun then guitar ever was.

I found MY instrument in the flute and I know that no amount of practise at the guitar was ever going to bring me to a standard that I would have been happy with.