Newbie question

[crookedtune]

Yes. Correct.

Most learn the fingerings based on the D whistle. Then, to play in other keys, replace the D with the correspondingly-keyed whistle. Very simple.

[jiminos]

day late and a dollar short, but i'll give it a run...

suppose you are looking at a piece of sheet music, and the key signature has one sharp, indicating the song is in the key of G. Let's say that the first note is a quarter note written on the second line from the bottom of the staff ( a G.)

So... you grab your trusty High D whistle, finger it thusly.... xxx ooo... in preparation for that first note. You blow and a note is produced. That note will be a G. Then you play the rest of the tune and have a grand old time. The tune you just played on your D whistle is in the key of G.

Later, you decide you would like a deeper sounding tone when you play that song. So, you jump online, navigate to your favorite whistle dispensary, drop a few ducats and wait for a brand new G whistle to arrive. It arrives, you take it out and warm it up with a few scales and then you are ready to attack that tune with your new whistle. If you play the tune using the EXACT SAME FINGERING AS YOU USED ON YOUR D WHISTLE.... the tune will sound just like before, but lower.... the fingering that produces G on your D whistle will produce a C on your G whistle. If you play the tune all the way through on your G whistle, you will be playing it in the key of C. (according to the notes produced and heard.)

Herein lies one of the confusing parts.... on your G whistle, most folks around here will refer to the fingering of xxx ooo as G.... EVEN THOUGH THE NOTE PRODUCED IS NOT A G, IT IS A C if you use a tuner to tell you what note you are playing. We all know it's not a G that is produced, but that's what we call it. And to make it even more complicated to the newer players, we will call it a G when using a Bb whistle, an Eb whistle, a C whistle, we just don't care!

if you start there and just accept that this is kinda how it works... eventually, the rest of the knowlege behind that norm will make itself known to you.... but, early on.... try not to hurt your brain too much.... just go with this... the fingerings have names and the notes produced have names. the ONLY time the fingering and note names will be the same is when you are using a D whistle. all the rest of the time, the fingering names WILL NOT be the same as the name of the actual note produced.... hey, it's transposing.

be well,

jim

[JTC111]

Okay. One final attempt at understanding. D fingering refers to all fingers down giving you the bell note for the key whistle you are playing.

Yes, "D fingering" would be all the holes covered. We also refer to "G fingering" as the scale beginning with the low G note on a D whistle (xxxooo). For the vast majority of whistle players, these are the first scales learned because just about every beginner's lesson book starts you in the key of D ...and moves on to G next.

And, if I use my G whistle in a tune that is in G. I read the notes on the staff as written and play as if I am playing a D whistle and the sounds that emerge will fit in correctly withe the tune?

Many tunes in the key of G are meant to be played on a D whistle. Take a look at the music and if you have any notes that fall below the G on the second line, you're going to need a D whistle so you can go down and get them.

If all the notes stay above the G on the second line (and here's where it gets confusing) you'd either have to learn a new fingering/note association where you recognize the G note as xxxxxx (some do it, but as there are 12 major keys, at some point it has to become confusing to the majority of us) or you'll have to transpose it into D and play it on the G whistle using D fingering (and that way you're playing in the key of G).

If you play a tune written in G the same way you'd play in G on a D whistle, you'll actually be playing the tune in the key of C since xxxooo on a G whistle is a C note.

There's a handy chart on this page that shows you what whistles play in what keys (1st major, 2nd major, and minor). Scroll down just past the halfway point

[highland-piper]

If all the notes stay above the G on the second line (and here's where it gets confusing) you'd either have to learn a new fingering/note association where you recognize the G note as xxxxxx (some do it, but as there are 12 major keys, at some point it has to become confusing to the majority of us) or you'll have to transpose it into D and play it on the G whistle using D fingering (and that way you're playing in the key of G).

The exception is if you plan on working with other musicians. When my friend, who plays harp, says, "C", he always means C, not C# and not whatever note comes out when I play C fingering on a D whistle, but C. So I need to know the notes for every whistle I might play with him.

I'm in the process of working up an arrangement of a tune for low-g whistle and fiddle. The fiddle will have a separate part. I need to do the arrangement with the notes on the page reflecting the notes as they sound.

[plaidpotato]

One perverse thing that can come up when you're using the D fingering for all whistles is that, say, if you find a tune that's written in Bb, and you want to play it on a Bb whistle, you first need to transpose the sheet music to D, and then play it on your Bb whistle, which you're now pretending is a D whistle.

Still, for most people, this is much easier than learning a new fingering for each different key of whistle. And it has the added benefit that you can now pick up any whistle in any key and play the tune with the exact same fingering: D.

[JTC111]

The exception is if you plan on working with other musicians. When my friend, who plays harp, says, "C", he always means C, not C# and not whatever note comes out when I play C fingering on a D whistle, but C. So I need to know the notes for every whistle I might play with him.

That point was covered. When we say "D fingering" or "G fingering" we're referring to what we learned on the D whistle when we first started playing.

If your harp player wants something played in C, I'm going to grab a C or G whistle. But I'll want the music I'm reading written in D or G. In this age of computers, and given the availability of notation software that can transpose a tune in seconds, it shouldn't be too difficult to do when needed.

[cutterpup]

Thank you all. I just wish it was the you hadn't chosen to wrap my low D alba around my head, even if it was easier to bend than the ABS one. Being a recorder player first, I have been too long used to different fingerings for different instruments. Now, since I would like to NOT learn different fingerings for each whistle (right now just D, G and B flat) i will have to work on transposing on the fly. I have no problems playing in a different octave than what's written so I hope that "seeing" the notes above what they appear will become just as easy.
My confusion has been because so many discussions on transposing, both here and on other sites say simply that to play in a different key, just get a different whistle and play it "normally" without regard to fingerings and transposing. then of course the debates begin and chaos reigns supreme.

[JTC111]

i will have to work on transposing on the fly.

I don't know what your musical leanings are, but if you're playing Irish trad music there's enough written in D and G (and Em which is also played on a D whistle) to keep you busy for a decade or more.

[cutterpup]

i will have to work on transposing on the fly.

I don't know what your musical leanings are, but if you're playing Irish trad music there's enough written in D and G (and Em which is also played on a D whistle) to keep you busy for a decade or more.

Because I have a beautiful sounding G whistle that I'd really like to start using. That is the main reason for my wanting to learn how to get the most from it. Till now I've been playing music written in D or G on my D whistle and all other keys on the recorder.

[Peter Duggan]

Because I have a beautiful sounding G whistle that I'd really like to start using.

Well, you can treat that as six-finger G (like your treble recorder). Or six-finger D (as a transposing instrument). Or both (according to context)...

[StevieJ]

THIS explanation may help. Or it may just make everything more confusing.

[JTC111]

i will have to work on transposing on the fly.

I don't know what your musical leanings are, but if you're playing Irish trad music there's enough written in D and G (and Em which is also played on a D whistle) to keep you busy for a decade or more.

Because I have a beautiful sounding G whistle that I'd really like to start using. That is the main reason for my wanting to learn how to get the most from it. Till now I've been playing music written in D or G on my D whistle and all other keys on the recorder.

Yeah, so pick up your G whistle, pretend it's a D whistle, and play to your heart's content.
You sound like you're putting a limitation on yourself that shouldn't exist. Just because a piece of music is notated in a particular key doesn't mean that's the only key in which it should be played.

[Zabava77]

One perverse thing that can come up when you're using the D fingering for all whistles is that, say, if you find a tune that's written in Bb, and you want to play it on a Bb whistle, you first need to transpose the sheet music to D, and then play it on your Bb whistle, which you're now pretending is a D whistle.

Still, for most people, this is much easier than learning a new fingering for each different key of whistle. And it has the added benefit that you can now pick up any whistle in any key and play the tune with the exact same fingering: D.

That is exactly what happened to me. I first learned the fingering on C whistle (not the low whistle, but Eastern-European 6-hole whistle). The tune I am learning now (The Water is Deep) is written in D: perfect for my D whistle. However, I need to transpose it to C, or learn the fingering for D. There are quite a few pieces written in D, so it will be necessary to transpose them...

[MTGuru]

We really should put our heads together and get this written out correctly in language easy to understand so we don't go through this as often as we do.

I've tried that. But it bumps up against MTGuru's Law of Transposition Exposition: If you can't explain transposition in 25 words or less and have them get it, then they're not going to get it.

Transposition is really a very, very, very simple and intuitive concept. But it's entirely aural, and trying to explain it in words is usually futile. You end up having to toss around terminology for keys and pitches and fingerings , and end up with what looks like a mathematical soup in print. When, in reality, I can sit down with someone face to face, instruments in hand, and give them the "aha moment" in 5 minutes or less.

The explanatory problem is that there are 4 different independent variables:

1. The "key" of the tune or song.
2. The "key" of the whistle you're playing.
3. The "key" of the fingering you're using.
4. The "key" of the concert pitch you're producing.

All 4 of these "keys" may be different! And they all interact with each other. But the bottom line is super simple. What's coming out of your instrument is either right, or it's wrong. That is, for your purposes - which may be: matching other instruments, or matching a singer's vocal range, or playing solo with the desired timbre, etc. You just adjust any or all of the 4 variables until you get the result you want or need. And only your ears can tell you if you're getting the result you want or need. Hence the frustration of trying to communicate this only in writing.

I also think part of the problem is confronting the question of what it means for two melodies to be "the same". If I play Mary Had A Little Lamb in C or in F#, I'm playing two entirely different sets of notes. Yet anyone with an ear can hear instantly that the two are "the same". It's the classic problem of "identity under transformation". And until a beginner is able to match their intuition about music to all the terminology and gobbledygook, explanations will seem much more complicated than they really are.

[Peter Duggan]

If you can't explain transposition in 25 words or less

OK, let's see what you've got...

Transposition is really a very, very, very simple and intuitive concept. But it's entirely aural

That's 15.

What's coming out of your instrument is either right, or it's wrong.

And another 12.

Hmmm, take out two 'very's and we're just about there?