All ivory flute gone for £2850

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Re: All ivory flute gone for £2850

Post by Loren »

Gordon wrote:You know far more on this topic than I do, Loren, but isn't grenadilla (what we call African blackwood) relatively new to flutes (and the most stable, as far as I can tell) - as opposed to ebony, which was commonly used for Baroque period flutes, and highly unstable/brittle. Or is grenadilla and ebony the same tree? Just asking for clarification.
You are, of course, correct Gordon: Ebony and Grenadilla are indeed different species of wood. And I should apologize for being less clear than I meant to be about expressing what I was thinking: By saying "Old Flutes" I was thinking both of historical flutes as well as the "new era" flutes that have been around quite a while now - up to 40 years or so for some of the "New" makers - where we've seen a fair amount of cracking with the Grenadilla. My point being of course that all of the main tonewoods used by flute makers over the years have been proven fairly unstable. I didn't think to include Ebony as no one (to my knowledge) is currently using it much, while grenadilla, boxwood and cocus are still utilized.

All of that said, I honestly can't say with any certainty how much, if at all, grenadilla was used in older flutes as I haven't made a real study of it. Mostly we see what appears to be ebony on the baroque flutes, and then Cocus on the later flutes but I have seen Nach Meyer flutes, for example, that sure look like grenadilla to me, and from an allergy standpoint I react to it the same way :swear: .

At any rate, good on your for pointing out the distinctions Gordon, I really wasn't clear enough in my initial post. Probably hadn't had that second cup of coffee yet.

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Re: All ivory flute gone for £2850

Post by Gordon »

Loren wrote: Ebony and Grenadilla are indeed different species of wood. And I should apologize for being less clear than I meant to be about expressing what I was thinking: By saying "Old Flutes" I was thinking both of historical flutes as well as the "new era" flutes that have been around quite a while now - up to 40 years or so for some of the "New" makers - where we've seen a fair amount of cracking with the Grenadilla. My point being of course that all of the main tonewoods used by flute makers over the years have been proven fairly unstable. I didn't think to include Ebony as no one (to my knowledge) is currently using it much, while grenadilla, boxwood and cocus are still utilized.

All of that said, I honestly can't say with any certainty how much, if at all, grenadilla was used in older flutes as I haven't made a real study of it. Mostly we see what appears to be ebony on the baroque flutes, and then Cocus on the later flutes but I have seen Nach Meyer flutes, for example, that sure look like grenadilla to me, and from an allergy standpoint I react to it the same way :swear: .

At any rate, good on your for pointing out the distinctions Gordon, I really wasn't clear enough in my initial post. Probably hadn't had that second cup of coffee yet.

Loren
Yes, I guess I thought you were referring to ebony when you included grenadilla as unstable. Not a nit-picker, usually.. ;) But to my mind and albeit limited experience, grenadilla is far more stable than boxwood, maybe cocus; can't say for "newer" woods like mopane. Still, if you react badly to it, may as well be downright fragile...
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Re: All ivory flute gone for £2850

Post by Loren »

It might be useful then to define what "Stable" means for our purposes of discussion then. The stability of a material with regards to woodwind making is, for me, defined by the following factors:

1) Stability Lengthwise: Does it tend to warp from top to bottom, the way we often see boxwood do?

2) Stability around the bore Eccentrically: Will the piece warp or "Oval" in that way that makes the tenons not fit into the sockets properly?

3) Stability around the bore Concentrically: How much will the wood shrink/contract around the bore axis in the way that causes all the headjoint cracks on flutes with metal linings?

4) Ability to resist stress: How much shrinkage concentrically can the flute resist before cracking? Plus, how well can the wood tolerate differentials in moisture content - which is to say, if you pick up a flute that is relatively dry and play it for an extended period, will it crack?

5) Stability of the grain of the wood Vertically: How much does the grain "raise" over time as the instrument is played causing the previously smooth bore to become rough which impacts tone and playability? Also does it absorb so much moisture the tenons swell an inordinate amount causing ill fitting joints?


To the woodwind maker these should all be considered important measures of stability as they all impact the how the instrument functions over time. Every wood has various proportions of the qualities listed above, and all are inherently unstable it's a matter of picking your poison so to speak.

Some Examples:

Boxwood: On the downside, it can be very warpy, particularly when not properly seasoned and stabilized properly. It also tends to swell an awful lot when played for long periods. Again this can be largely mitigated if the proper precautions are taken during the design and making of an instrument from the wood. On the positive, Boxwood tends to maintain a very smooth bore if the instrument left the shop that way. And it is very much more resistant to cracking than Grenadilla, Cocus, most of the rosewoods, and many other woods.

Grenadilla and Cocus ( lumping them together for our purposes because they are very similar): These don't swell or warp much (cocus I think swells a bit more in my limited, pre allergy experience), the grain of the bore stays very smooth if well finished initially, but over time this wood is highly likely to crack if used over any sort of metal liner. Some may say "Not so!" for Grenadilla, but I have seen lots of cracked heads and barrels by current makers, much of this no doubt due to poor seasoning practices, and a few makers are a bit notorious for their poorly seasoned wood, but still, we'll see plenty of cracked Grenadilla headjoints over the years - hear me now and believe me later :lol: (SNL reference for those old enough to remember Hans and Franz) Also, Grenadilla is nowhere near as resistant to cracking when played dry as boxwood is. I know of more than a few instances where someone cracked a perfectly good grenadilla instrument by playing it for an extended period after the instrument had been sitting for months or years unplayed. I have yet to hear of this happening with a boxwood instrument, although I am not saying it can't happen.

Mopane: Seems pretty stable in general but (in my limited experience) it swells a bit during play and the grain in the bore tends to raise quite a bit impacting the sound.

Dogwood: Similar to mopane in that it stays straight, but it swells quite a bit, at least as much as Boxwood making for rather problematic fit of socket and tenon joints. Also the grain of the bore does raise some over time, not so much as Mopane but still, I find the swelling enough to impact tone unless the bore is re-reamed or sanded smooth.

So for me, Grenadilla is a fabulous wood for woodwind making, but it has as much instability overall as any of the other woods. Grenadilla's instability is just heavily weighted in the negative with regards to shrinkage concentrically and inability to handle the stress of radical moisture content differentials.

Anyway, that's where I'm coming from on the subject of stability and tonewoods. I was lucky enough to work at a shop that had used many different woods over many years and we got to see an awful lot of those instruments for regular services of cleaning, recorking, crack repair, thumb bushing replacements or adds, etc., so I got to see how those instruments held up over time. We kept a detailed record of every instrument made, so I was able to look up every instrument by serial number if I wanted to check the exact age, pretty cool, not to mention informative! In addition the owner of the shop had an extensive collection of antique woodwinds (many I never even saw) and basically what I came to understand from all of this is that over long periods of time, all instruments are going to have some problems regardless of the natural material used. Poor design and/or execution tends to contribute to more problems, but in the end I didn't see grenadilla instruments faring any better than boxwood instruments. YMMV :wink:

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Re: All ivory flute gone for £2850

Post by Nanohedron »

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Re: All ivory flute gone for £2850

Post by LorenzoFlute »

Nice one Nano...!

Just thought worth mentioning, Adrianne Greenbaum playing klezmer music with a flute that has an ivory headjoint:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TCNr2sBW ... plpp_video
Antique 6 key French flute for sale: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=102436

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Re: All ivory flute gone for £2850

Post by jemtheflute »

Many years ago, on a visit to the late Paul Davies, I got to play on a late Baroque ivory flute very similar to the one which is the subject of this thread. I don't recall it's maker, if indeed it was stamped (and I tried a Cahusac oboe on the same occasion and have had to fight confused recollection.... the oboe was definitely Cahusac...). It was in at least as good condition as this eBay one and was at A=c415. It was stunning to look at and to hold, and even with my very limited skills and no baroque flute experience or proper technique, I could tell it made a fantastic sound - warm, rich and responsive. I loved it but even then (about 25 years ago) it was worth about £4k according to Paul. (To put that in perspective, good R&Rs were pulling about £500-850-ish, IIRA.) That is to date my only and all too brief experience of playing an all-ivory flute - but it wouldn't lead me to confirm Loren's opinion about ivory as a flute body material and its tonal qualities. However, he has much more experience and skill in these matters than I can ever hope to have. One other counter-argument I would offer, though, is the lovely sound Stephen Preston and Lisa Beznosiuk got from two early C19th all-ivory flutes on that Amon Ra two Flutes album I often cite.....
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Re: All ivory flute gone for £2850

Post by Peter Duggan »

jemtheflute wrote:One other counter-argument I would offer, though, is the lovely sound Stephen Preston and Lisa Beznosiuk got from two early C19th all-ivory flutes on that Amon Ra two Flutes album I often cite.....
Hey, Jem, you've just pushed me into removing the shrink-wrap from a CD I got recently of Aldo Abreu playing Telemann on original recorders from the Von Heune collection (with which Loren's surely familiar), including a performance of the E minor double concerto on ivory recorder and flute (played by Suzanne Stumpf)... so just about to stick that on and will let you know what I think!
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Re: All ivory flute gone for £2850

Post by Peter Duggan »

Peter Duggan wrote:including a performance of the E minor double concerto on ivory recorder and flute (played by Suzanne Stumpf)... so just about to stick that on and will let you know what I think!
Well, that's a smashing performance of a favourite piece and the instruments sound great although I wouldn't personally want the responsibility of caring for them. Excerpt from Aldo's sleeve note as follows:
One of the recorders that I found most striking in its sound color was the ivory alto recorder by Scherer. This instrument, by the famous flute maker of Butzbach, Germany, is the only recorder in existence by him. When I discovered that Friedrich also owned two original ivory flutes by the same maker, I decided to include in this recording Telemann's E minor concerto for recorder, flute, and strings using one of these flutes together with the recorder. The two instruments, played by Suzanne Stumpf and me, were beautifully matched.
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Re: All ivory flute gone for £2850

Post by jemtheflute »

:thumbsup:
Oh dear. I have that sinking Amazon feeling....... and FRAD is kicking in.
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Re: All ivory flute gone for £2850

Post by Peter Duggan »

Don't think you'll get it at Amazon UK (I ordered it from the CDBaby link on Aldo's site), but think you'd like it (just listening to the fantasias now) even though that's the only transverse flute recording on it.
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Re: All ivory flute gone for £2850

Post by jemtheflute »

Peter Duggan wrote:Don't think you'll get it at Amazon UK (I ordered it from the CDBaby link on Aldo's site), but think you'd like it (just listening to the fantasias now) even though that's the only transverse flute recording on it.
Actually, it is on Amazon GB, but it's expensive. It's on Amazon US too. I listened to some of the clips on CDBaby - not awfully impressed on that basis, to be honest - sounds OK and interesting, but not compelling. Given the price, my ardour has cooled - and to be honest I'm not desperate to get the Telemann Fantasias on recorder rather than traverso. I've Wish Listed it......
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Re: All ivory flute gone for £2850

Post by Peter Duggan »

Fair enough, Jem... can understand that when it's mostly solo recorder, although (having just tried a few of the clips myself) I really don't think they do its vivacity justice. That said, this vivid sound's also slightly marred IMHO by what sounds like traffic and other low frequency noise in the background much of the time. But it's also interesting to me in recalling Aldo as a highly-esteemed young player at Koninklijk Conservatorium (where I also studied with Michael Barker in 1986–7) and the only player I've ever heard really get Berio's Gesti to 'work' as a continuous progression from aleatoric to fully-notated sounds.
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Re: All ivory flute gone for £2850

Post by Gordon »

Back to Loren's dissertation - thanks for that!
I think it's safe to say all organic materials, wood or bone, will have some fragility - whether that's brought on by improper seasoning (of the drying variety, not spices), some unseen imperfection set to split eventually, like a ticking bomb, or general mishandling through the years. So, yeah, Delrin probably trumps wood or ivory for durability, but there seems to be some concession that certain woods have more reliable durability than others...
Jem and Peter's observations fall well into the it's-the-player, not-the-material camp. Who'd have figured?
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