A curious phenomenon of learning

[benhall.1]

I noticed this particular phenomenon long ago. The tunes that actually got me interested in playing flute, and I therefore began with learning, I no longer even play because those same old mistakes and general immature playing style sets in every time. Kind of sad, actually, that I specifically shy away from playing those old tunes that originally inspired me to pick up the flute in the first place.

That is kind of what I'm feeling. Except that I'm determined to beat it. Or beat the tunes into submission. Or something ...

[Kirk B]

I look at it like any repetitive task. The more you do it a certain way, the more you'll keep doing it that way because you get to the point where you 're not thinking about it. The computer punch-card is already punched in your brain for that tune. And it has a hanging chad.

I'm probably one of about 1% of UK-ers who knows what that means.

I figured as much but I reckoned that if someone wanted to know that badly they'd just google it.

[LorenzoFlute]

I'm not sure about mistakes, but sometimes I find it harder to make variations on a tune I've learned long ago. It's like if my mind doesn't want my fingers to "explore" the tunes in a different way from what they used to.

[benhall.1]

I'm not sure about mistakes, but sometimes I find it harder to make variations on a tune I've learned long ago. It's like if my mind doesn't want my fingers to "explore" the tunes in a different way from what they used to.

See, that's strange. Because that ought to apply to my fiddle playing. But the opposite is the case. The tunes I learnt when I was a teenager go off all by themselves in all sorts of wild, imaginative directions. New tunes are kind of as I've just learned them. And then the wild thoughts start coming in anyway ...

[an seanduine]

Musicophilia by Oliver Sachs.

[david_h]

Yes I experience that. I wonder if it is because with those first tunes there are things to do with the mechanics of playing that need to be thought about but later on don't have to.

I am just starting to learn to play tunes in A. So for these first tunes the G#s are slight sticking points. I assume that eventually that note will become as automatic as cross fingered C and half-holed F. Until it does I know where those notes are in the tune in a way I rarely do for notes in tunes in D or G. Another slightly sticky bit is sequences involving A c# and e. They are three notes that require markedly different embouchure and breath control and they occur in 'roles' in a tune that they don't usually have in tunes in D. Playing them in tune in that context is not yet a 'habit'.

So should I be playing A major scales and arpeggios rather than working on my little group of tunes ? Are those tunes going to be a problem in the future ?

[post re-written a few hours after the timestamp, then edited for typos]

[mcelvogue]

It happens to me too and I often end up re-learning the tune in a slightly different setting or change the phrasing to get me past the blockage. I wouldn't be too overly concerned about though as I often find that my head is telling me that something isn't working so I change it so that it does. I think it is just part of the process of getting the tunes to stick in a positive way so that you can once again enjoy them (at least that's what happens for me anyway).

I have to also say, there are just some tunes that I have to abandon as I get absolutely no enjoyment out of the repeated failures and then once I've totally forgotten them I have a totally new approach to them. It may be that what I'm trying is just too difficult for me at that particular time. I know that for example my breathing will change over time and whilst I may have been able to get through a phrase 5 years ago, I'm nowhere near getting through the same amount of notes in a comfortable way so after several attempts I will need to change the approach and try from a different runway! (hoping not to crash and burn). This is usually achieved by breaking the phrases up and re-working so that I am once again confident with it. It's not always easy but it can be done. Quite often, this will uncover another dimension to the tune and provide a new enthusiasm and often a better end result.

Hope this makes sense. I think the important thing I try and remember is not to get too hung up on these tunes, there's plenty more out there. On a slightly different note and tenuously related, I've often went through periods where I would shy away from playing reels or hornpipes or a particular type of tune as I lose the knack of phrasing/breathing for that particular tune. This usually happens when I overthink the whole thing. Once I sit back and listen to some music that inspires me, I forget about the technical/mental block and start playing again. It is annoying and frustrating but it's also good to find what works for you to move you out of that temporary block.

Tom

[janmarie]

That IS a most frustrating phenomena. Maybe a testimony to the power of the unconscious, I don't know. No worry. FWIW, this is how I work with it. I have only been taking lessons for a 2 years or so with a couple breaks. My teacher is very accomplished. I told him about this "phenomena". He recommended to not go back to the earlier tunes learned, but to wait and rework them later. I interpreted that to mean that creating sufficient distance from the earlier tunes, they then can be approached later with more developed skills/understanding to help overcome the "old ways." Just my take on it. I also got so frustrated trying to will through the tune as if I could conquer it. It really wasn't pretty. So right now I follow my teacher's advice, let them go ( with just little visits every couple of weeks ) and rid my most of my playing time of that frustrating phenomena. This whole flute learning process has taken more humor, persistence, patience and knowing when to let go and move on etc. than I ever would have imagined. Wise little things. Mine hasn't started talking to me yet. That's good, right? Have fun and good luck to you!
Janmarie

[Steve Bliven]

So now I'm imagining a tutor beginning with something like, "Pick a crap tune that you really hate and make your mistakes there, as you'll never really want to play it again anyway. Got one? Good. Now let's begin."

Just sayin'

Steve

[Lars Larry Mór Mott]

My personal theory is that (at least I) played the tune, made a mistake at some point, started all over again and of course messed up again at the very same point in the tune, instead of breaking it up and practising the part i had a problem with. I think you learn the tune subconciously including the bum notes and mistakes that way.

[emmdee]

I'd like to add that I think it's very heartening to see that a player of Tom's capability has his own issues with tunes but that he knows how to approach them. Hope for the rest of us...

m.d.

[monkeymonk]

Thanks for starting this thread Benhall

This may sound strange....
when I first learn a tune I seem to absorb it very quickly. Each time i play it through the mistakes get fewer and fewer and at a very rapid pace and within a day i can play the tune at a good clip. Everyting gets smoother and faster and its like i'm on the Autobahn out of Berlin to Magdeburg and i can go as fast as i like. Then, for some reason i start to screw the tune up and within a few days it feels like i can't play the tune at all and that's when i start to have to really dig deep and play it slow and study the tune and it takes me about a week before i can play it reasonably well at a session. This is a very frustrating feeling because i get better and then get worse.

As far as replaying tunes from the past goes i can play the few tunes i learned in the past much better now when i go back to them (after a little practice) but i experience somethin similar to what Othannen mentioned where i have to rework the tune with the ornamentation i didn't know when i learned it.

Proprioception and "muscle memory" must be related somehow as they are both centered in the cerebellum but Proprioception is a diffrent thing as it is simply the unconcious awareness of where your parts are. It is actually the 6th sense but one you are not aware of and so important that the majority of your nerve matter is dedicated to keeping track of your parts. I think what we are talking about are habits and it seems that your mind can definately stick an old habit to an old tune. I bet if i got in a 1984 Nissan/Datsun station wagon i'd probably burn the clutch out just like i did 18 years ago when i was learning to drive a standard......actually, i hope i never do that again.

Bob

[janmarie]

Thanks for starting this thread Benhall



Proprioception and "muscle memory" must be related somehow as they are both centered in the cerebellum but Proprioception is a diffrent thing as it is simply the unconcious awareness of where your parts are. It is actually the 6th sense but one you are not aware of and so important that the majority of your nerve matter is dedicated to keeping track of your parts.

Bob

Well I wish my proprioception would get it in gear and keep better track and stop my hands from turning my flute!

[monkeymonk]

Thanks for starting this thread Benhall



Proprioception and "muscle memory" must be related somehow as they are both centered in the cerebellum but Proprioception is a diffrent thing as it is simply the unconcious awareness of where your parts are. It is actually the 6th sense but one you are not aware of and so important that the majority of your nerve matter is dedicated to keeping track of your parts.

Bob

Well I wish my proprioception would get it in gear and keep better track and stop my hands from turning my flute!

Well, there is consious proprioception also (touching your finger to your nose) but i find that i play better when i give all my attention to the tune and less to important things such as grip and posture. BTW, my flute turns to.

[benhall.1]

It happens to me too and I often end up re-learning the tune in a slightly different setting or change the phrasing to get me past the blockage.

Now that is a bloody good idea. Why didn't I think of that? Seriously, seems obvious now you say it.

Hope this makes sense.

Tom

Absolutely! All of it. Especially - for me - the bit I've quoted, but the rest of it too. Thanks Tom, that's very helpful.