Olive wood

[Viking of Kiev]

Reading one recorder messageboard I got interested in olive wood properties. Recorders made from olive wood appeared to be much desired by recorder players because of beautiful grain and "soft warm tone". But someone there posted a picture of a nasty crack right through windway and warned olive lovers that olive wood was prone to cracking due to porous structure of the wood and so on. It was compared with oak, ash and walnut woods.
I wonder is that so?

Can't see the picture (forum requires registration?) and no idea whether or not it's prone to cracking as such, but the head joint of my Roessler olivewood sopranino recorder cracked in three places some 26/27 years ago:

* Top of the beak, from voicing to mouth end, right through.
* Bottom of the beak, outwards from the block.
* Socket, right through.

Here's this crack.

I was told on that forum that professional recorder's mouthpiece was much more demanding in respect of keeping to measurments - ie. it must be produced more carefully and accurately than a whistle's one. Moreover, wooden whistlemakers very often make the mouthpieces (windways) of their whistles from non-wood materials - as on the Abell whistles, for example. So the contact with mouth moisture is not so dangerous. Recorder mouthpiece appears to be very sensitive to moisture and long time playing and even a small crack may completely ruin an instrument.
This is the danger they warned olive flute lovers about. But is this due to the wood properties?

But, it seems, according to messages above, that olive whistles and flutes do not suffer much from cracking and other wood damage.

[Feadoggie]

I see on flutemakers' sites is usually African Olive - is that more reliable than European or trees and trunks are larger there or smth. else?

See, that's the issue. The "African Olive" just says where the trees were harvested. Last time I checked Africa was a large geographic area with lots of environmental diversity. What's that tell you? Not much that is specific. It says nothing about the particular type of tree - the genetics -and so there is no way to determine what varieties are best suited for flute making. Much like boxwood I suspect - some boxwood is suitable some is just not suitable. But if one maker finds a good supplier of boxwood in Turkey then others follow.

One of the two olive wood flutes I have seen was a Windward. It was beautiful and it sounded great. The Windward web site states that they source their olive from a supplier in South Africa who supplies "instrument grade" timber. So my guess is that Windward has faith in their supplier and so far they are pleased with the results they get from that wood. That says little about the type of olive wood they are using. And I would guess Windward don't actually know the species of the wood at all just that it comes from trees that grow olives somewhere in Africa.

I wouldn't say African olive is any better or worse than Italian, Spanish, Moroccan, Greek or Jerusalem olive wood. In general I think olive is an acceptable wood for flute making. But that's just my personal opinion. So I wouldn't look only for "African". European olive should be just as suitable.

The agricultural practices around olive growing are apparently similar world wide. The trees are pruned annually so the overall size of the tree (and the resulting timber) is limited. The annual cuttings are likely not large enough to be used for flute making. The billets we would use come from trees that no longer produce sufficient fruit to stay in production. That wood has probably stood the test of time but in some case it has failed the test. When it is harvested the wood cutter has to determine what of it is suitable for a variety of uses. Some will be good for furniture making, some for crafts (tool handles or kitchen spoons maybe) and some will be suitable for firewood. The best grade of wood will be suitable for instrument making. You have to trust the wood supplier and the the flute maker in judging the individual pieces of timber. Remember that the flute building process is (or should be) a long one - to give the billets and bored blanks enough time to stabilize. If the timber makes it through that process without showing unusual changes in shape or cracking it should be good to go for a long time.

I was told on that forum that professional recorder's mouthpiece was much more demanding in respect of keeping to measurments - ie. it must be produced more carefully and accurately than a whistle's one.

Well you can't print anything that is not true on the Internet, or so I've read on the Internet. That is just plain unmitigated nonsense! I'll say no more about recorder snobs. They need to get out of their excessively tight little circles more.

Moreover, wooden whistlemakers very often make the mouthpieces (windways) of their whistles from non-wood materials - as on the Abell whistles, for example.

Right, whistle makers do use alternative materials. For good reasons too. First we (whistle makers) are not strictly beholding to the designs, materials and processes defined at a particular point in time. So we are free to analyze the problems in woodwind design experienced by players and we can select solutions that counteract those issues. Recorder makers have to stick to the Baroque style of manufacturing. As they say "If it ain't Baroque, don't fix it."

But still, creative makers have found ways to retain the look of the Baroque and still alleviate the moisture issues. Moeck, Mollenhauer and others stabilize many of their timbers using a vacuum/pressure wax infusion process, or they once did. I wouldn't be surprised if they do a polymer stabilization today. I have maple/sycamore Moecks here that I've played for forty years or more that have not cracked. Without the wood being stabilized they would have splintered into toothpicks by now. Ever wonder why there are so few remaining original recorders from the Baroque period? My set of Yamaha ABS recorders are holding up well - should last forever.

So the contact with mouth moisture is not so dangerous. Recorder mouthpiece appears to be very sensitive to moisture and long time playing and even a small crack may completely ruin an instrument. This is the danger they warned olive flute lovers about. But is this due to the wood properties?

The old builders had other solutions to moisture too. The baroque builders would have gone out and killed an elephant to use ivory for their beaks since it was the miracle material of that era. So who's doing things right? I'd rather kill a delrinoceros than an elephant any day.

The whistle and the recorder have the same mouthpiece structure. The issues are the same. The solutions we employ are not the same. But flutes are entirely different animals at the noise making interface. So while un-stablized olive wood may crack (most woods would under the same environmental pressures) in a recorder mouthpiece, a flute may not. What causes flute timbers to crack is often times the head liner and other metal tuning slide components. The timber will naturally expand and contract as moisture and temperature change. The metal parts will not move as much. Pressure and stress results and the timber is weaker and it cracks. Again, inventive designs and material can get around that. You don't have to fully line the head. The tuning slide can be wrapped in a flexible material like cork that will cushion the timber from the contraction forces against the slide tubing - or make the slide of a polymer material. So unless the maker feels they have to strictly summon up the ghosts of Rudall, Pratten, Nicholson, et al in their design and manufacture process we have solutions we can employ that would make olive far less likely to crack than it might on a baroque recorder.

Still, you pay your money and you take your chances. That's the nature of wood.

Feadoggie

[Steve Bliven]

I'd rather kill a delrinoceros than an elephant any day.

Easier, too....

Best wishes.

Steve

[Dominic Allan]

At this rate I'll finish it by the end of the century, I'll let you know how it goes.

[Feadoggie]

So after looking into olive trees and the wood that comes from them a bit more I have been re-educated to the fact that there is only really one variety of olive tree from which all the olives we enjoy come from - Olea Europaea. In fact all the timber harvested in Europe, the eastern Mediterranean and throughout all of Africa come from that single species of tree, as far as I can see. Most suppliers seem to only use the common name of olive wood. There are other Olea varieties, close to forty varieties which couldalso be called olive, but those are not the plants that yield the timber typically used in woodworking. It all comes from the same tree appently. Genetically, Mediterranean olive wood is supposed to be the same as Jerusalem olive wood and the same as African olive wood. But my argument about the skill of the wood's supplier should still be valid.

So, Viking of Kiev, it probably matters less whether you have a flute made of Spanish olive versus African olive provided the people that selected the wood in the first place know what they are doing.

It still bugs me that so many wood suppliers trade with common names and not the species from which the wood comes.

As for Windward Olive flutes - they shouldn't count - the photo work on the site, the site itself and overall design of the flutes there is so stunningly beautiful that it is only the price that stops me (and many others, i suspect) from buying one.

I should add that those Windward flute photos are the work of photographer Sohier Christie. Windward flutes are just the best example I have seen of flutes made from olive wood. You don't forget one once you've seen and heard it.

At this rate I'll finish it by the end of the century, I'll let you know how it goes.

Should be well seasoned by that time I would expect.

Feadoggie

[yola christie]

Thanks to those of you who commented and those who posted photos of the African Olive Windward flutes with Grenadilla rings and detail. The photographs were taken by Sohier Christie, http://sohierchristiephotography.com/ who does most of the photography for Windward Flutes http://windwardflutes.com .

We have used African olive, Olea africana, for nine years, and have become quite familiar with the wood and its behavior. This subspecies of Olea europaea is sometimes called Wild African olive, and it grows in southern Africa, on the Indian continent and in China.

African Olive, whose specific gravity varies between 0.8 to 0.89, is a sub-species to the olive of the Mediterranean, Olea europaea, but it is denser and makes a more stable timber when subjected to constant variation in humidity. It is not a protected species, and unlike some other tone-woods used for woodwinds, is a hypo-allergenic wood, and sweetens the workshop with a pleasant smell when being turned or milled.

We purchase our African Olive directly from a wood cutter in South Africa, with whom we have had many communications to learn about their sources and availability. These discussions have helped us to obtain a consistent quality of billet, in the sizes colour and grain direction we want. The Wild African Olive we use in our flutes is grown and harvested in southern Africa, it has a wide variety of grain and colouring, depending on the altitude and rainfall or available water where a particular tree grows.

We choose our wood carefully, and buy only top music grade billets from our supplier and we season our billets for at least three years, in a controlled storeroom before beginning to turn them into flutes. One problem presented to the flutemaker because of the great variety of grain pattern and colour available in this wood, is the task of carefully matching the sections of the flute, if aesthetic unity is desired in the instrument.
The oils in the wood do not permeate like the oil in Olea europaea, and we find that using proper methods appropriate toughened epoxies that are flexible, we have great success bonding this wood to slide or ring.

In our experience African Olive rarely develops cracks. We have always discarded any questionable billet at the start for use in toolmaking or cork sticks! If the wood is seasoned properly before using, and like any of the flutes we make, if it is treated with a natural hardening oil during its manufacture, oil finished and played-in with care once it becomes a flute, this wood makes a very stable instrument, and maintains its good looks over time. The tone quality of an African Olive flute rivals Grenadilla or Mopane, making it a formidable sessions or solo instrument.

See our website for more information about African Olive flutes...
windwardflutes.com

[an seanduine]

I once had a close relationship with a third generation wood supplier. It's not an easy life. They eventually had to go out of business for health reasons. Seems now the industry is in the thrall of various large multi-national corporations and they give me the distinct impression that small customers are a bad side effect. . . .
Back in the day getting a good identification of a wood was hit or miss. Charley's grandfather used to take stroll down along the docks with a bottle or two and visit with various 'tramp' steamer captains, who would make a habit of laying in various exotics as dunnage to off-load to Charley's family. The woods were exotic and sometimes they're sourcings were unclear. On at least one occasion I sent several small cuts to the Forest Products lab of the US Forestry Service. The identification service was free, but took about three months to get back an analysis from microscopic examination. I suppose nowadays you could use DNA sequencing, but it could be expensive. . .!

Bob

[Viking of Kiev]

Oh thanks Feadoggie for a lot of info and Yola Chrstie for an insight into Windward production methods! Many things are clear now.
But yet, I wonder if olive wood can be compared to oak and ash wood in its structure? (It seems to me olive wood has different, denser structure.)
Probably all can notice that these woods rarely used for making woodwinds due to porousness and irregular lamination (don't know what it is called exactly). But guys on that forum I mentioned in the first post compared olive wood to these timbers from what you might conclude that olive wood was not good for flutes, whistles and recorders.
But it seems this wood to some reasons is less friendly to recorders and goes quite well for Irish flutes and whistles.
Strange justice .

[Dominic Allan]

Olive wood is nothing like oak or ash in structure, it's similar to boxwood only slightly softer.

[Doc Jones]

Forbes and Yola Christie (Windward Flutes) make some glorious flutes of olive wood. I've had several come through the shop. The tone is warmer and more complex than blackwood but not as smooth and buttery as boxwood.

Doc

[Ted]

I have a number of reed instruments in olive; zampogne, pifferos etc. Have seen a couple of sets of uilleann pipes made of it. Seen a number of Spanish bagpipes of various types made from it also. It is nothing like ash, oak or walnut. I find it is not prone to cracking and instrument makers who use it regularly find it quite stable. It is oily and not at all porous. I agree it is close to box in density. The fact of one recorder head developing a crack is not a sign that olive is prone to cracking. I have seen similar cracks in African blackwood recorders as well. Does that mean that blackwood is prone to cracking? Any timber may have a fault in it and may develop cracks. Olivewood has a long history of use for wind instruments all around the Mediterranian area. It is the prefered timber for many bagpipes and reed pipes. I have one instrument from Italy which is made from a different type of olive, being very dark and oily. It is prefered for a particularly long pipe, one piece being over 3 feet in length. It is considered the most stable wood for such a long pipe by the makers. Olive dries very slowly, taking longer to cure or dry than most other tonewoods.

[Tamadden]

There is one down side to olive wood. Cats love it.

I thought Lesl would jump in before now, but I used to own a lovely Casey Burns in olive wood. When I would visit Lesl's house for one of her famous sessions, her cat would be all over that flute, and one had to watch him or he might try to make off with it.

Lesl, was that the same cat who jumped in through the window and dropped a live mouse into the middle of our session one night? In the middle of a tune no less - but no one stopped playing. Feet came off the floor, some may have climbed on furniture, but the tune carried on 'till the end. At which point the panic commenced.

All the best,

Tom

[Dominic Allan]

Well I did it, this isn't the dusty flute shown earlier in this thread but one made to a slightly different design.
It's very boxwood like in tone , perhaps a bit edgier.
The flute (and my workshop) smell absolutely gorgeous!