how do you get to Carnegie hall?

[ausdag]

I'm surprised no one has mentioned listening yet.

See point 3 and 4 of my earlier post. It was subtle hint at the importance of listening

[CHasR]

I think a lot of classical musicians don't get just how much of what they play is mimicry and understanding of various styles, and not what's on the printed page. They do it; they just don't know they're doing it.

well that all depends (100%) on what conservatory they graduated from a Curtis kid would absolutely know.

I'll give just one example to illustrate: tell a good classical musician that the dots in front of him/her are from the Baroque era. Now tell him/her that they are from the late Romantic period. Now tell him they're Stravinsky in his neo-Classical phase. Just see how much difference there is between the three.

ive tried very hard to let this sit; but the more I re read it, the less likely the situation you propose seems. A 'good' classical musician would be able to tell by simply looking at the chart wether its baroque, common practice, or modernist. Theres just no mistaking Igorovitch for Rachmaninoff. and neither of them look ANYTHING like Sebastian Bach. Im not saying that there arent different approaches to each composer, what im saying is that each composer was skilled enough to impart their intentions irrevocably in print. The closest one can get to your proposed situation is to say to a good classically trained musician "play this like neoclassic, then LRM, then north German Baroq". And they will, quite knowingly.

[chaos97]

the only thing that article did for me was confirm that i don't like Ginger Baker.

i think it's absurd to claim musician's either are or aren't, and that practice has little to no effect. Ennis or Clancy, Beethoven or Paganini, all the musicians that i respect and admire seem to have put in A LOT of time towards practice, and all seem to have had an aim and an ambition to better themselves towards something greater at some point.

[JR]

I've just remembered a book on the subject, 'The Genius in all of Us'

http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/aw/d/1848312180

Deals with the idea that anybody can achieve anything and that talent or intelligence are not genetic but grown.

I think the author uses an example of a violinist but can't quite remember.

[Ceann Cromtha]

the only thing that article did for me was confirm that i don't like Ginger Baker.

i think it's absurd to claim musician's either are or aren't, and that practice has little to no effect. Ennis or Clancy, Beethoven or Paganini, all the musicians that i respect and admire seem to have put in A LOT of time towards practice, and all seem to have had an aim and an ambition to better themselves towards something greater at some point.

Yeah, he's just a beaming ray of sunshine, isn't he? I wonder what got him into this bad place and hope he finds a way out of it.

After reading that interview I found it therapeutic to consider Neil Peart. Mr. Peart is a drummer/musician in the same class or a higher one than that of Mr. Baker, has suffered terrible losses in his life but maintains a brighter perspective. If you ever want to be uplifted, just watch the documentary on Rush called "Beyond the Lighted Stage" (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1545103/). You don't have to like Rush or even like rock music to experience this effect.

[TheSilverSpear]

Play a tune without the gracenotes! This does not mean generally but that you have to be able to do that first before you integrate them. The plain (midi) structure is what classical lessons show you as well and they create an awareness of their „limited“ purpose (very ornamental, but NOT necessary): Their emphaziseing function is „questionable“. In addition: On any blown or bowed instruments any note does NOT end when a new one begins but when you stop blowing or bowing (and stringed instrument players BTW also have their techniques to „stop off“ the sustain).

I don't think the "emphasizing" function is questionable at all, nor are ornaments/articulations "not necessary" for playing Irish music on the uilleann pipes or anything else. On the pipes especially, they are pretty much your only method for phrasing the tune since you can't just bow or blow or pull or strum harder like players of other instruments can (but often don't, if they are good). If you want to emphasize any part of a phrase in order to make the tune sound musical, like a coherent tune, you are going to have play some kind of "ornament." And yes, that includes lifting the chanter off your knee, because in order for that to work, you usually have to vent other holes, which takes as much, if not more coordination than playing a cut, and it changes the tone of the note more than it changes the volume (sorry, ennischanter -- the pipes have some microdynamics, but they don't have dynamics in the way a fiddler might understand the word). I don't see deliberately playing the tune without ornaments as being a particularly helpful or useful exercise. You would never actually want to play that way, because it will sound awful, and I don't see where it gets you in your musical development. What is that meant to accomplish? Try giving a speech without using any adjectives. You probably can and maybe it will show your great awareness of language, but why would you?

To paraphrase a much missed (lol!) poster on thesession.org who was particularly passionate about this topic, the ornaments are a part of the tunes!

And as for Carnegie Hall, take the N, Q, or R train to West 57th and 7th Ave and then go Uptown for half a block.

[Sandy]

I don't see deliberately playing the tune without ornaments as being a particularly helpful or useful exercise. You would never actually want to play that way, because it will sound awful, and I don't see where it gets you in your musical development. What is that meant to accomplish?

To me it looks like one of the few effective ways to manage one's rhythm/timing problems.
So yeah i believe Hans-Joerg has got a point here.

[tommykleen]

An analogy for me regarding closure, articulation, legato playing: speaking and singing. The voice is the tune, the lips create the closure/phrasing, the tongue the ornaments. I know: pretty broad, but you get the idea.

actually, meant this for another topic, but I think I will leave it here.

[TheSilverSpear]

To me it looks like one of the few effective ways to manage one's rhythm/timing problems.
So yeah i believe Hans-Joerg has got a point here.

I read this yesterday evening, thought about it, and concluded that I remained totally mystified by how playing a tune completely free from any ornamentation and phrasing (you need one to create the other) can be an effective way to "manage" timing problems at all, much less one of the "few effective ways." This is all news to me.

[geoff wooff]

My opinion is that most ornamentation is not part of the tune and is not needed to create phrasing... even though, for most people and most tunes, especially on the pipes, the music will sound better with a modicum of grace noting.

So Tom, I am in Hans-Joerg's camp on this.

best regards,
Geoff.

PS; oh and decent pipes have a reasonable amount of Dynamic range, it is just a case of not playing all the notes at full voice all the time... so as to give the tune some extra vocal quality.

[ausdag]

Before we get too bogged down in a dichotomy between 'Classical' music and 'Folk' music, here's Sean O'Riada's view on the matter:

Note his comments on ornamentation and written music

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bSn07vfWwKM

[rorybbellows]

My own personal interest in starting this thread is due purely to my lacking in good and consistent technique and in this instance by technique I mean how you execute things like rolls,crans triplets and grace notes. I am particularly bad with my top hand and my A and B rolls, especially short rolls are terrible, the timing is out and I sometimes miss the cut or don’t complete the roll properly .
I ‘m inclined to think that if I had, had proper instruction on how to practice these things at the very start I might have got the hang of them by now. When I first started taking lessons I was never told how to practice, I was given a tune shown how to do whatever ornament were in the tune and it was then up to me how I go about learning to play it. Because of my own ignorance my idea of a practice session was to bash my way through all the tunes I knew ,mistakes and all and all I was practicing was bad technique. Not to blame the teachers by the way ,maybe they pulled me up over poorly executed ornaments but the other thing I lacked was discipline. I think its important that a beginner is told how important it is to get things right from the start and move forward from there.
I don’t agree that because its folk music and we are only doing it for a bit of fun that bad technique doesn’t matter, I know I’d enjoy my playing a lot better with better technique.

It maybe an idea for NPU to have a small guide for anyone intending to give lessons on certain points to be stressed. Just because someone is a good piper doesn’t mean they will be a good teacher. An advanced player might forget what its like to be a beginner.

My question about classical/ art music practice is that it would seem to me that they do stress the importance of learning good technique from the start.

RORY

[ausdag]

I originally posted my 5 step 'recipe' because I think it is the best way to go about it. It gives a good balance of exercise, playing tunes and application of techniques to tunes without wasting time on wondering if folk equals classical and all that. You can't play a decent tune if you can't. do pippety-pips; being able to do pippety-pips only comes from exercising your finger muscles.. knowing when to do pippety-pips only comes from listening to master pipers ideally in conjunction with personal tuition. If Leo Rowsome didnt think repetitive exercises were important he never would have published them in his tutor book.

[rorybbellows]

I originally posted my 5 step 'recipe' because I think it is the best way to go about it. It gives a good balance of exercise, playing tunes and application of techniques to tunes without wasting time on wondering if folk equals classical and all that. You can't play a decent tune if you can't. do pippety-pips; being able to do pippety-pips only comes from exercising your finger muscles.. knowing when to do pippety-pips only comes from listening to master pipers ideally in conjunction with personal tuition. If Leo Rowsome didnt think repetitive exercises were important he never would have published them in his tutor book.

Yes Ausdag I agree, I meant to say in my last post, I think your 5 step post is spot on.

RORY

[ausdag]