Uilleann piper bloodline and isolated pipers.

[geoff wooff]

[quote="highland-piper"]


"A difference though, is that making a musical instrument is not a performance art."


But it does pertain to learning by observation.

[pancelticpiper]

I was reading about Tommy Reck, and how he learned from John Potts who, in turn, learned from pipers that went as far back as the pre famine I think. Or Liam O'Flynn who had lessons from Leo Rowsome(who piping goes back for many generations), and also had much influence from a Willie Clancy, and Séamus Ennis. And their piping influence goes back all the way to the pre famine I think...

I find this very interesting because it's not something that I hear uilleann pipers talk about very much.

In the Highland piping world it used to be talked about a great deal, especially in piobaireachd, in which idiom every piper could trace an unbroken line of master-to-pupil relationships going back, in many cases, to the 18th century.

There's a great book Highland Bagpipe Makers which also serves as a history of Highland piping, because nearly all the early makers were top players. Maker after maker follows the same pattern: a boy is born to a piping family, at a young age takes some initial lessons from his father, when showing promise begins formal tuition in piobaireachd from an acknowledged master, as a youth starts winning all the top prizes, then sets himself up as a pipemaker.

For example George S MacLennan:

"The MacLennans were a well known piping family going back to Murdoch McLennan, town piper of Inverness in the 16th century. A descendant, another Murdoch or Murdo, was a piper at the battle of Culloden in 1746. His son Duncan served in The Black Watch as a piper and was at the battle of Waterloo in 1815. His son Donald was the father of Alexander who won the Prize Pipe at the Northern Meeting in 1857 and John who won the Prize Pipe in 1848. Donald himself taught John Ban MacKenzie, Donald Cameron, and Sandy Cameron. Another son, Duncan, was the father of George, who was the father of William who won the Gold Medal at the Argyllshire Gathering and the Prize Pipe at the Northern Meeting in 1878."

Many of today's players can trace their piobairached lineage to one of these pipers.

The book has a great story that illustrates the interwoven master>pupil thing:

"The young Robert (Reid) and his brothers Jim, Sandy, Tom, and Willie were all pipers but Robert showed the most promise. He was taught by his father until the age of 12 when he became the pupil of John MacDougall Gillies, who was teaching many of the top players at that time. In 1913 Robert won the March at The Northern Meeting.

While preparing to play at the Northern Meeting one year Reid saw an old man listening to him, and when Reid stopped playing the old man came forward and said "You're playing that second bar of The Earl Of Seaforth wrongly."

"Oh you think so."

"Who teaches you?"

"John MacDougall Gillies."

"Well when you get back to Glasgow tell him he's playing it wrongly."

"Who are you to tell Gillies how to play a tune?"

"I'm Sandy Cameron. I taught him."



BTW Willie Clancy, according to The Dance Music Of Willie Clancy, didn't come from a piping line, but learned tunes from his father (flute and concertina) and his mother (concertina). He never saw anybody actually playing pipes until he was 18 years old, and didn't get a practice set till he was 20. He had been playing whistle, flute, and fiddle. A late bloomer on the pipes!

"In 1947 his piping had improved to such an extent that he entered and Oireachtas competition and won first prize." Willie would have been 29.

[CHasR]

Beats trying to read all that scribbling and bibbling IMHO..
Can never read that stuff anyways.......

I'm strongly going to advocate for music notation literacy here. Yes Its difficult at first, but it yields enormous dividends in the end, even (some may say especially so) in a primarily aural genre such as ITM.

There are those that say real notation isnt even necessary anymore, now that we have youtube and a host of sources for aural learning. Or worse yet that complete "ABC" rubbish, which should be stricken from the face of the earth. Understanding notation is the key to access the page BEHIND where ones teachers are playing; learning from a recording is like xeroxing a xerox, (if that term 's still in use ) and will eventually degrade, like a lifeless clone.

If we are talking about real "musical lineage" here, and not just another litany of... "Well, *I* studied with 'so&so', therefore *I* know what im talking about"...., (a huge trap for aural traditions) then the ability to read and understand actual music notation forges a durable link in the chain as opposed to degrading imitation. [/rant]

[ennischanter]

I am dyslexic when It comes to that stuff, man!


I have heard about a thing called Color sheet music, where certain notes are a certain color. I think I may give that a try someday!






That's pretty cool about Highland pipes. I have read articles on some pipers line of transmission, going all the way back to the MacCrimmons!


Are there pipers today that have this "line of transmission" going back to the MacCrimmons?

[highland-piper]

"A difference though, is that making a musical instrument is not a performance art."


But it does pertain to learning by observation.

Yeah it does, because it's really difficult (perhaps impossible) for most of us to objectively observe ourselves whilst performing.

[highland-piper]

Are there pipers today that have this "line of transmission" going back to the MacCrimmons?

Many (perhaps most) people talk about going back to "the Bob's of Balmoral." That would be Bob Brown and Bob Nicol, who both died in the 1970's, or a few of their contemporaries. The history of all those gentlemen are well documented, so no one bothers to recount much past there. Brown and Nicol were prolific teachers.

I don't think anyone knows the names of but one or two pipers who learned at the famous MacCrimmon "college" that closed in the 1700s. The last MacCrimmon piper was John, IIRC, an officer in the King's army who fought against the colonists in 1776. From what I've read it seems he was always more interested in his military career than in piping.

Many of the professional pipers of the 1700's (frequently called "hereditary pipers") emigrated to Nova Scotia. Unfortunately things are somewhat murky there. There was a living, vibrant piping culture, but it was a hard life, and not so well documented.

One of the things that is really nifty about highland piping is that when we play piobaireachd, we are playing music that has been passed from teacher to pupil from the 1500s. It has been kept alive as part of the culture all that time, which might be unique in Western music.

Short bio's of the fellows I mentioned appear here:
http://www.nicol-brown.org/brown.html

[bensdad]

In the liner notes to one of the Greentrax compilations there was a lovely, and instructive quote from one of Bob Brown's students, Dr. Jack Taylor, on his piobaireachd teaching:

I remember leaving and walking back through the forest thinking I now knew exactly how the tunes should be played...later when I tried things at home I realized the ease was his, not mine.

[gregorygraham]

[rant] I am much more concerned by the piper bloodline topic in a different way: are you Irish and did any of your ancestors play Irish music? I get this question all the time. People see my non-Irish surname and wonder how I can possibly play Irish music . It seems to be an American thing: people want to point to the one, real, authentic thing that fits neatly into some nice stereotype. People also lap up the narrative of someone who, basically, went right from the teat to the tune. Come on: growing up in America in the '60s and '70s the most common influence in your early musical background was probably "classic rock". People need to own that. But it doesn't fit the charming 5th-generation piper thing.
[/rant]

Tommy Kleen you are right on. So true.

Life is arbitrary. If my mother had not gone out shopping one day in 1978 with a friend who happened to be Irish and if they had not come back to our house with a Bothy Band album they happened to find in an Irish tweed clothing / knick knack shop, I likely wouldn't be playing this crazy, maddening excuse for a musical instrument today. That's my bloodline. It's a crazy universe.

[ennischanter]

Are there pipers today that have this "line of transmission" going back to the MacCrimmons?

Many of the professional pipers of the 1700's (frequently called "hereditary pipers") emigrated to Nova Scotia. Unfortunately things are somewhat murky there. There was a living, vibrant piping culture, but it was a hard life, and not so well documented.

Man! No wonder there is an "infestation" (meant In a nice way though!!) of pipers around that area! I used to live in New Brunswick as a kid, there was a piper around every corner. Heck! My uncle who plays pipes lives there! There is even a bagpipe maker in Nova Scotia!

Lots of Scottish roots over there....

[pancelticpiper]

There is even a bagpipe maker in Nova Scotia!

Lots of Scottish roots over there....

Ironic that the pipemaker in Antigonish NS is an Englishman with an Irish last name (John Walsh).

[geoff wooff]

Yeah it does, because it's really difficult (perhaps impossible) for most of us to objectively observe ourselves whilst performing.

Yes this is true. So, what can the isolated "Piper without Teacher" do ?

I suggest two things ; firstly record your playing and listen to the recordings critically. This can be horribly demoralising but also very usefull.

Secondly; listen to yourself whilst you play, listen to your instrument and what you are producing musically, not the Tape that is playing in your head of some fine piper you are trying to emulate. Perhaps this one is not so easy but it is similar to listening to the other musicians whilst playing in a group or session.... and we all know people who obviously are not listening to their neighbours at a session.

[ennischanter]

Ah, I do lots of recordings. As far as I know my rudiments, and rhythm need some shaping up.


Maybe I'll make some for you guys to critique.

[highland-piper]

Yeah it does, because it's really difficult (perhaps impossible) for most of us to objectively observe ourselves whilst performing.

Yes this is true. So, what can the isolated "Piper without Teacher" do ?

I suggest two things ; firstly record your playing and listen to the recordings critically. This can be horribly demoralising but also very useful.

I think 20 years ago that was probably the best that one could do, along with occasional interaction with others. In fact, I use recordings of myself to improve my playing, and they can be a great help.

But it takes a lot of time. You have to make the recording, then you have to play it back and alternate it with the reference recording. Eventually when you get some experience you can just listen critically to your own recording, but in the initial stages you probably really need to go back and forth between the two in order to hear the difference. It's not enough to hear that there is some sort of difference though -- you have to be able figure out what the difference is. This can be really hard (at least it was for me). It would be much easier for someone who is already an accomplished musician who was adding pipes.

Anyway, today there is instruction via skype. I would think that in person is best, but that skype is still way better than completely alone. It seems like the biggest disadvantage to skype is that you can't play with someone because of the lag.

[daveboling]

You say:

Or worse yet that complete "ABC" rubbish, which should be stricken from the face of the earth.

Are you speaking of playing the ABC text directly, or using programs such as ABC2WIN and ABCExplorer to create, edit, store, and print notation? I think I had an easier time learning to pick up tunes by ear than I would have trying to learn to play ABC raw notation, and I come from a classical music background where reading and memorizing from notation is the standard.

[CHasR]

Are you speaking of playing the ABC text directly, or using programs such as ABC2WIN and ABCExplorer to create, edit, store, and print notation?

Im talkin 'bout this kinda cr@p, Dave:

X: 1
T: The Lark In The Morning
R: jig
M: 6/8
L: 1/8
K: Dmaj
|:AFA AFA|BGB BdB|AFA AFA|fed BdB|
AFA AFA|BGB BdB|def afe|dBB BdB:|
|:def afe| bff afe|def afe|dBB BdB|
def afe|bff afe|g2e f2d|edB BdB:|
|:dff fef|fef fef|dff fef|edB BdB|
dff fef|fef def|g2e f2d|edB BdB:|
|:Add fdd|edd fdd|Add fdd|edB BdB|
Add fdd|edB def| g2e f2d|edB BdB:|

IMHO it's done more damage to civilization than Simon Cowell, the bitcoin, and Justin Beiber combined.