Why are Irish sessions so fraught?

[highland-piper]

And, highland-piper, surely nobody seriously says that learning to read sheet music is not a useful skill to have, do they?

They definitely do. No one in this thread, or even on this forum that I'm aware, but I've seen posts from both Irish Trad and Old Time people who believe that learning to read, per se, will forever ruin your prospects for ever becoming decent at their style.

Statements along the lines of "You can't learn to play this music right if you learn how to read music." It's pretty silly, I think. They don't seem to be in jest either, as they argue the point.

[Cathy Wilde]

I've found that saying there's only one way to do something is often (not always, but often) an invitation to be proven wrong.

[crookedtune]

The point at which a session becomes tense, judgemental or clique-ridden is the point at which it should do the amoeba dance, IMO. That's normal, and it results in smaller and more appropriate groupings for everybody.

I've never noticed Irish sessions being any more or less prone to that sort of thing, though.

[Redwolf]

And, highland-piper, surely nobody seriously says that learning to read sheet music is not a useful skill to have, do they?

They definitely do. No one in this thread, or even on this forum that I'm aware, but I've seen posts from both Irish Trad and Old Time people who believe that learning to read, per se, will forever ruin your prospects for ever becoming decent at their style.

Statements along the lines of "You can't learn to play this music right if you learn how to read music." It's pretty silly, I think. They don't seem to be in jest either, as they argue the point.

I've run into it here (not on this particular board, but definitely on Chiff and Fipple). In fact there are people who have been regulars here in the past (though I haven't seen them around lately) who are or have been local to me with whom I simply will not play because of that attitude...the idea that, if you are capable of reading music, you're useless as a trad musician and, further, ruining things for them.

Redwolf

[cboody]

Seems to me that many of those upset about reading music get that way because some folks show up with sheet music at sessions. That is definitely outside the "rules" at many sessions. And, though I'm a paper trained musician, I'm bound to say that using music at a session will get in the way of your own attention to what others are doing (unless you've years of training as a chamber music player). Good session playing is bound up in variation and reaction to others. Anything which messes that up will be seen as bad and probably with good reason.

As to why the sessions are fraught: My impression is that many players of Irish Trad. tend to be plain spoken and direct folks. Some other people don't deal well with that approach to things. This is particularly true in the US where we've spent almost 20 years in education saying "great job Johnny" even when it isn't. Put Johnny in a session where someone says "you know, you really don't have a grasp of what you are doing" and there is bound to be tension for Johnny even if it is spot on.

I also agree with the "amoeba division" comment above. Every small group of musicians playing together is intimately involved with every other person in the group. That's why chamber music groups break up all the time. Sometimes personalities may not mesh, and even if opposing folks are good people they may not be able to get along musically. When that happens things get tense, and perhaps it is time to subdivide.

[Mr.Gumby]

As to why the sessions are fraught: My impression is that many players of Irish Trad. tend to be plain spoken and direct folks. Some other people don't deal well with that approach to things. This is particularly true in the US where we've spent almost 20 years in education saying "great job Johnny" even when it isn't. Put Johnny in a session where someone says "you know, you really don't have a grasp of what you are doing" and there is bound to be tension for Johnny even if it is spot on.

That seems to be a problem for some, and has always been for people on C&F.

I could mention an instance where Diane (the original poster of this thread) didn't take well to being told her playing (in clips she posted at the time) sounded like a beginner's playing, even with the expressly added caveat that, as a beginner, there was absolutely no shame in that.

The board's insistence on defending Serpent whistles and their maker would go a long way illustrating the point as well. But a long list of other examples could be compiled.

There's a mismatch of expectations. You won't get wrapped up in warm fuzziness just because you own a flute. You will generally get help and understanding once you show you have a serious commitment when it comes to making a fist of playing it.

[Infernaltootler]

I just read the whole thread and to be honest it makes very grim reading.

Makes me want to not go to a session again.

[loic]

I just read the whole thread and to be honest it makes very grim reading.

Makes me want to not go to a session again.

I thought the same. Hopefully the Internet reflets pretty bad 'the real life'

[Mr.Gumby]

Just curious. Can you explain what makes you feel there's a 'grim' element?

It seems to me that most points I recall being made in this thread are pretty much common sense, standard social interaction issues.

Do you think you have expectations about sessions that are realistic?

[cboody]

I understand those who feel it is a bit grim. But I don't think anyone needs to not go to sessions because of the directness. Just follow a few reasonable guidelines. These aren't rules, but I suspect will help you get involved with sessions of any sort.

1) Go to listen at least once, and maybe more times. Don't plan on playing, and perhaps don't even bring an instrument. Listen to the tunes and figure out if you know enough of them and can play them at the session tempo.

2) If you can't play up to speed or don't know many of the tunes get some sort of recorder, GET PERMISSION to record things and go home and learn. If the group is just too advanced ask members about other sessions. Be honest about your level. You'll get help.

3) Do your asking (recording or other sessions) at times when playing has actually slowed down and don't interrupt the flow of things.

4) Limit your questions about titles. You can always learn them later and constant asking will be viewed as an interruption by some folks.

In sum: Remember that they are there to play music and stay out of their way.

5) If you decide you can keep up and have many of the tunes it is polite to ask if you may join in. Or, to bring an instrument and sit back a bit from the regulars and try to play without being in the spotlight. If you play OK you'll be asked to move into the circle or space will be made for you when you arrive (depending on the space in the venue of course).

6) If you go to play be sure you have at least one tune (or set if the session plays sets of tunes) you can lead. Sooner or later you will be asked. No one is trying to put you on the spot, they're just being polite. And, that's a way for everyone to discover how you fit in. So, be prepared.

7) Unless you know the session welcomes sheet music and music stands don't bring any.

If you play guitar learn chords and watch others for chords you might be missing. Some sessions limit guitar to on player at a time. That's because too many guitarists think they are playing a string bodhran. Even if you play good guitar try to learn a bit about Irish guitar playing.

9) If you play bodhran don't play if another player is playing. I don't know how you handle those who won't give you a turn.

10) If someone speaks bluntly to you try to understand what they are saying and be aware that it is intended to be helpful despite the way it sounds.

Now, none of these thoughts are fixed in stone. They really boil down to being sure you belong in the session from your perspective and from that of the others. Sessions are groups of friends and like any social group you need to work your way into it, not come and assume you fit.

So, do go to those sessions. Just be thoughtful about how you do it.

[Gordon]

Lot of rules, there, cboody... I'd have to take notes along, instead of my instrument. But not bad advice for beginners, I suppose, if they've never been to a session.

The thing to keep in mind is that playing in/at sessions is not the be-all and end-all of playing Irish music. It's really not what playing the music is all about. If you're fortunate enough to have good sessions nearby, or just one good one, then it can be a great place to play and learn. But sessions are actually an aside, another way to meet other players, pick up a few tunes.

In more cases than not, though, sessions weaken, even destroy, the music; when I studied with Jack Coen, my first year of playing, I asked about sessions, because I was anxious to get out and play this music at speed. He laughed and called them "the ruination of Irish music." I laughed, too, but it wasn't until years later, when I was less of a beginner, that I got his point. Sessions can be a great thing, lots of fun and a fertile learning ground. But enjoy it as the social gathering and noisy fun that it is. Should you really give up that wonderful setting you learned from, say, a Mike Rafferty or a John Skelton, because the local session plays some generic version of the tune at hyper speed? Or throws in odd rhythms they picked up from some other source or influence, or whatever? The music, and your given instrument(s), need to be learned independently of sessions, not the other way 'round.

The cacophony that is often called a session can be great fun. But it isn't about the music, and it isn't the music's ultimate purpose.
IMO, of course.

[loic]

well cboody I would sum up your 'rules' with a big one :

- Respect the people with who you play.

Here is IMO the key to integrate this bunch of people.

[NicoMoreno]

Please respond to Mr. Gumby's post Loic, since you agree with the assessment.

Why is this thread grim?

[loic]

Please respond to Mr. Gumby's post Loic, since you agree with the assessment.

Why is this thread grim?

I've already expressed my opinion here : viewtopic.php?p=984313#p984313
But if you wish to comment, please do so.

[crookedtune]

I recently wrote this little piece for a group I'm involved with. It reflects my view, and perhaps no more:

http://pinecone.org/jamsessionetiquette.pdf