Shall we resume saying how long we've been playing?

[kennychaffin]

We must be talking on different planes of existence.

shame it isn't plains of existence

or pastures of existence....

KAC

[jim stone]

Ladies and gentlemen, I give you Jim Stone, who speaks for the Indians.

Sheesh.

Rob

Not speaking for anyone. I lived in
India for three years. Spent a couple of years
hitchhiking around, played music on the
streets with all sorts of people. India is
full of music, much of it religious.

What I saw. Doubtless there are exceptions.

I think many of us Westerners have, in the back
of our mind when we think of playing a musical
instrument, a picture of sitting in a tuxedo at the grand
piano before a panel of judges....

And we get self conscious and basfhul and say: 'Oh no, I'm not talented enough!'

People who don't have that picture (Indians generally
don't) seem a lot
more likely to just play.

[Ro3b]

That's sort of exactly my point about talent, he didn't have to ask, he just "knew."

Nah. No doubt he knew how by the time he'd finished that first symphony, but he probably didn't know how when he started.

[kennychaffin]

That's sort of exactly my point about talent, he didn't have to ask, he just "knew."

Nah. No doubt he knew how by the time he'd finished that first symphony, but he probably didn't know how when he started.

So then please provide YOUR definition of talent.

KAC

[jim stone]

Ladies and gentlemen, I believe we have covered the waterfront.

[treeshark]

And we get self conscious and basfhul and say: 'Oh no, I'm not talented enough!'

You have to have some sympathy with this though. In our age we are deluged in the efforts of the most advanced and capable in every area it's no wonder we feel inadequate, one of the disadvantages of having our culture all on on tap maybe.

[kennychaffin]

Ladies and gentlemen, I believe we have covered the waterfront.

OMG we've turned into the Coast Guard.

KAC

[jim stone]

And we get self conscious and basfhul and say: 'Oh no, I'm not talented enough!'

You have to have some sympathy with this though. In our age we are deluged in the efforts of the most advanced and capable in every area it's no wonder we feel inadequate, one of the disadvantages of having our culture all on on tap maybe.

Interesting observation.

In India lots more people are musicians and music tends
to be most everywhere, e.g. lots of it on the street.
Mostly religious. So people hear a lot of very good musicians.
Of course there is radio and TV and there are concerts
of profoundly accomplished musicians.

But there is no distinction between high culture and low
culture. A classical music concert isn't performed in
tuxedos and evening gowns. The musicians sit cross-legged
on the floor, dressed in ordinary clothes (pajama, quite
neat but nothing special), and play bamboo flutes, dulcimers,
tablas, not so different from the instruments on the street.

There isn't an air of competition, people take themselves
less seriously (whether or not I'm talented at this or
that doesn't much matter), individuals matter less
than families and everybody knows in the most practical
way that s/he is going to die. You often see dead bodies
being carried to the river to be burned. Parents do
not appear to raise children expecting them to
be exceptional at this or that, certainly not as musicians.

The chief model of music is the religious chant
and it's a great leveler. Music is typically prayer,
not a way of distinguishing yourself as talented.

I think the high-culture model of music tends to contaminate
certain instruments here--when you get to the electric
guitar, people tend to just pick it up and play. Flute,
unfortunately, is high culture.

A memory:

Once I came out of a train station in the north of India
and there were two boys, maybe 11 or 12, sitting cross-legged
on the side walk. One was strumming a zither which was lying
on the cement
before him, the other was playing a tin can, I think it was,
and they were both singing in Hindi, a religious chant.
Singing with all their heart. It was extraordinary. I thought to myself: 'This is
the most wonderful music I will ever hear in my life!'

I don't think either of these boys, lower caste Hindus,
ever considered whether he was talented.

I figure if God exists, he made people like us because he loves music. Good enough, surely.

[crookedtune]

I figure if God exists, he made people like us because he loves music.

Evidence, at least in my case, that he's still honing his own talents.

[treeshark]

Once I came out of a train station in the north of India
and there were two boys, maybe 11 or 12, sitting cross-legged
on the side walk. One was strumming a zither which was lying
on the cement
before him, the other was playing a tin can, I think it was,
and they were both singing in Hindi, a religious chant.
Singing with all their heart. It was extraordinary. I thought to myself: 'This is
the most wonderful music I will ever hear in my life!'

Yes we all have these moments, I have been at house party's where music was played that would sweep you away even though the musicians were self taught, the moment and atmosphere are powerful ingredients indeed and colour what hearer feels. I know intellectually if I heard that same event recorded it would likely lose it's magic.
But when I visit my friend who is a professional concert guitarist and he plays I know I am listening to something of a different order, much less dependent on the circumstance, if I recorded it it would still be potent even after the intimate setting was removed from the equation.

[Rob Sharer]

Ladies and gentlemen, I believe we have covered the waterfront.

Good, coz I just watered the coverfront.

Rob

[Cathy Wilde]

And we get self conscious and basfhul and say: 'Oh no, I'm not talented enough!'

You have to have some sympathy with this though. In our age we are deluged in the efforts of the most advanced and capable in every area it's no wonder we feel inadequate, one of the disadvantages of having our culture all on tap maybe.

Amen to that! Me, it's hard to listen to myself because all I can do is compare myself to the folks on the recordings and oh, how short I fall.

On the blessing side, we now have the opportunity to learn from the best in the world. On the curse side, we now have a humongous world.

[peeplj]

Amen to that! Me, it's hard to listen to myself because all I can do is compare myself to the folks on the recordings and oh, how short I fall.

Comparing yourself to anyone is almost always a mistake, in my opinion.

Something that was said here on the boards really resonated with me, and I think it's worth repeating (and I would give credit if I could remember who said it):

Instead of thinking, "what a wonderful player," think "what a wonderful tune."

The trouble with holding your playing up to someone else's for comparison is that, no matter who you are, there is always someone who has played longer or who just plays better. Thus you hold yourself not only to an impossible standard but one that is a moving target, as well.

Focusing more on the tune and less on the player makes good sense to me.

Similarly, instead of setting your goals on playing better than ______, or even on playing better than yourself a month ago or whatever, I think it makes more sense to make your goal to try to simply try to play the tunes better.

Even that wording is not quite right. I'll try again: try to do better by the tunes.

That may not always mean playing them in a more complicated way; sometimes it may well mean playing simply and well rather than "better" but not so good, if that makes sense.

Just my $.02.

--James

[talasiga]

......In India .........

..... there is no distinction between high culture and low
culture.

......

I like al ot of the nice things you say about my ancestral place. However I don't agree with you on all of it.

That doesn't mean you shouldn'y say it. You had lived in India longer than me. However I am from a multicultural indo background (multicultural in that my parents are from different folk and language groups within the sub continent) and I have a long standing experience with indic music, including as a n organiser /promoter of concerts etc.

There are distinctions between high and low culture music and there is snobbery. The latter not necesarily but often.

Some Indians don't like to hear Baul music because they are "low class". Some Hindus won't entertain a certain raag because it is associated with a certain group of Muslim mystics.

Until the pioneering work of the late Pandit Pannalal Ghosh, the north ind. bamboo flute, bansuri, was considered a "low class" folk instrument not fit for a classical performance.

Don't get me wrong though. There is good snobbery too. There is a snobbery that won't take payment for musical performance. It is "low" to accept money for an act of devotion.

Also there have been historical and hysterical feuds between different styles of classical music as to which is the proper way to play a raag, which is the kosher way to ornament a phrase etc etc. Irish music feuds have nothing on Indian music feuds. Believe me.

I could go on and on .........

The point is that one should not generalise
about non military things like music.

[kennychaffin]

I figure if God exists, he made people like us because he loves music.

Evidence, at least in my case, that he's still honing his own talents.

KAC