Modes in ITM

[SteveShaw]

Blimey, Denny, your link crashed my computer! Here, trust the Beeb instead: http://news.bbc.co.uk/weather/forecast/ ... gion=world

Denny's link worked fine when I tried it a little later. I should have said!

[fiddlerwill]

But I think those C#s are a weak argument to determine the underlying mode of the tune.

Now Gillan's Apples has been a piping tune, and I gave some links previously to some examples. Pipers (and flute players) play it without accidentals in the endings (G#s in the piper's version corresponding to the C#s we talked about in the fiddler's version). Can we not call this piper's version to be in A Mixolydian? And if someone plays it with G#s in the endings, is it not still generally in A Mixolydian, but with these accidentals added to the endings? Or does it break the modality and we are not allowed to use Amix as key sig any more then?

The same questions can be asked about the fiddler's version we talked about in such great length. This version is just three notes higher, from "D" to "G", or from "Amix" to "Dmix". How about calling it "D Mixolydian", with accidentals added to the endings?

No because the Cs are Sharp apart from the first 2 and 5+6 bars. and even then there are no C's

Sorry lads but its mostly in plain old D major, with 4 bars of G in part one, which could theoretically be G lydian, but arent.


Its the underlying chord structure that makes this clear. Only be actively trying and experimenting will you achieve a correct understanding. Theory wont get you there. Sorry if I trample on anyones pet theory.

[hans]

Are we talking about this tune:

Code: Select all

T: Gillan's Apples
M: 6/8
R: jig
K: G
g3 B2A | GAG GBd | efe edB | dBA A2 D |
GBA G2D | GBd g2 a | bag fge | ed^c d2:|
faa faa | faa agf | gbb gbb | gbb bag |
faa faa | faa aga | bag fge | ed^c d2:|

There are no Cs or C#s apart from the ending bars of both parts. So I am not sure what other C sharps you are referring to.

Theoretically it could be noted in G with accidental C#s as above, in G Lydian, in D, in D Mixolydian with accidental C#s.

You say it is in D because of harmonic structure, noticeable when you put chords to it. I am happy to listen. I have no pet theory

[benhall.1]

Leaving aside your last post, Will ... (of course, it's not in D) ...

I did promise my explanation of how I feel about Ionian, and Irish music. Since the subject matter is worthy of several enormous tomes, I don't think the full explanation is suitable for an internet forum, so I'll try and be brief. Also, since I'm in work, I can't really provide every reference you may want. Sorry about that. Here goes:

There are two reasons why I usually feel uncomfortable ascribing the term 'Ionian mode' (or, for that matter 'Aeolian mode') to anything in Irish music. Firstly, it is my belief, based partly on long observation and partly on a fair bit of reading (people like Breatnach and Henebry, both of whom I've already mentioned, and some other stuff), that Irish music is essentially based on the medieval church modes. Neither Ionian nor Aeolian is a medieval church mode, but is a later (16c) invention. I reckon that most Irish music written apparently in Ionian or Aeolian modes, is in reality in the major or minor scale proper.

Which kind of brings me to my second reason for not seeing Ionian as the same as 'the major scale'. For music to be in Ionian proper, it would have to behave as a piece written in Ionian mode. This means that it would have to spend a great deal of time hanging around the fifth degree of the scale (the 'tenor') but without actually modulating to the key based on that note. (The tenor in modal music has a purpose within the mode, and does not behave like a dominant in a 'classical' major scale.) By contrast, pieces in the major scale would tend to be based, harmonically, around chord structures on the tonic, dominant and subdominant. I think this is what Gillan's Apples does. I think, as I suspect Hans does (correct me if I'm wrong here, Hans), that those C#'s in Gillan's Apples are there precisely in order to emphasise the move to the dominant chord structure and, apart from how it sounds, that is another reason why I think the tune is in the major key, and not in the Ionian mode.

I said above that Irish music is based on the medieval church modes. I'll be more accurate: I think the modal tunes are based on the medieval church modes (as far as I know, always the authentic rather than the plagal ones), but that there are also tunes which are in the classical major and minor keys.

[benhall.1]

... oh, and I should have added to the above the disclaimer I've used more than once already in this thread: I am aware that distinguishing between Ionian mode and the classical major scale is probably pedantic. However, in the case of Irish music, I think it's interesting in that it leads on to thinking where tunes which aren't in the old church modes might have come from. Did they come from modal music, possibly influenced by classical? Or, as I think more likely, were they a direct response to, and derive their inspiration from, classical music, influenced by the modal music already existing in the tradition?

[SteveShaw]

No because the Cs are Sharp apart from the first 2 and 5+6 bars. and even then there are no C's

Incomprehensible. "The Cs are all sharp except for the Cs that aren't in it" is as close as I can get.

Sorry lads but its mostly in plain old D major, with 4 bars of G in part one, which could theoretically be G lydian, but arent.

You don't know what this tune sounds like, do you.

Its the underlying chord structure that makes this clear.

There is no "underlying chord structure." Irish tunes are melody lines passed on aurally. Any "chord structures" are add-ons made later. They are neither fixed nor obligatory. If you're referring to harmony implied in the tune, and you're still sticking to your plain old D major notion, then you're just not listening.

Only be actively trying and experimenting will you achieve a correct understanding. Theory wont get you there.

Only by listening to the tune will you achieve a sensible understanding. I recommend the approach.

[david_h]

OK Ben, I think I get your distinction between Ionian and major - at least in the sense that its something to listen out for and try to understand. But if 'lrish music' is based on a set of medieval church modes that exclude the Ionian (which is something I think some of us need telling about, or at least reminding) was it a music that didn't have tunes using that scale until it was invented/became fashionable later ? I can see medieval monks not using the Ionian mode because they had been told not to but hardly the shepherd with his flute - especially if it was tuned like a whistle. Were Breatnach and Henebry specifically excluding Ionian ?

Crossing with your next post. I guess I am thinking - is everyone who talks about church modes quite so careful (?pedantic) in excluding the Ionian ?

And are you saying that the major tunes do inherently have an underlying chord structure ?

[benhall.1]

It's a bit mysterious as to why Irish music (or at least a lot of it) is based on church modes at all. There's obviously a reason, but I forget what it is now ... if I ever knew ... As for whether the shepherd with his pipe would have excluded Ionian ... Ionian as such is a late, proposed addition to the old church modes. As a church mode, I don't think it was used previously. And tonal music, with its major and minor scales, developed later. So, if Irish music developed out of the era of the medieval church modes, yer peasant wouldn't have had a 'normal' major scale available to him to use. I've got to go careful with this one, though, because there have been recent claims from some theorists that the modern major scale is actually very ancient indeed. I can't remember where I read it, and, since I wasn't convinced by it, I didn't bother to bookmark it.

By the way, and as an aside (bit of a bug bear of mine) if ever anyone says that trad is based on Greek modes, just shoot them down in flames from me, please.

[david_h]

But if he wasn't a peasant, but was a rich man's harper, with a diatonic harp (the sort with strings ...), he could have twanged away in whatever way sounded nice. Surely there were bright creative folk around to think 'I wonder what happens if we work things around this note'. Setting the names aside, didn't the Greeks try it ?

But my main concern is this chords business. They are such a poweful way of thinking of things that I am reluctant to do it for fear of missing out on some other understanding.

[benhall.1]

"Whatever way sounded nice". Yep. Absolutely. But have a listen to some medieval music some time - not tv incidental music, or anything at a 'Medieval Fayre' or something, but some proper medieval music. Not even necessarily church. Troubadour music. Secular art music. There is plenty of stuff recorded if you look. You'll see that they didn't necessarily come to the same conclusions we would as to what sounded nice. Also, there was an awful lot of intellectualising going on around the Middle Ages, y' know, and that would, occasionally, have got in the way of a good tune.

[david_h]

Fashion, commercialism and the trad police are not new then !

[benhall.1]

Fashion, commercialism and the trad police are not new then !

No.

[SteveShaw]

There are two reasons why I usually feel uncomfortable ascribing the term 'Ionian mode' (or, for that matter 'Aeolian mode') to anything in Irish music. Firstly, it is my belief, based partly on long observation and partly on a fair bit of reading (people like Breatnach and Henebry, both of whom I've already mentioned, and some other stuff), that Irish music is essentially based on the medieval church modes. Neither Ionian nor Aeolian is a medieval church mode, but is a later (16c) invention. I reckon that most Irish music written apparently in Ionian or Aeolian modes, is in reality in the major or minor scale proper....

Well I don't know how old most Irish tunes are but I reckon a good number, probably most, postdate the "invention" of Aeolian and Ionian. I'm uncomfortable with "written" in your explanation, as it implies a sort of formality in the composition, let alone in the handing-down process which gives us the tunes "as they are today," that I don't think is particularly appropriate. I also feel slightly uncomfortable about making too firm a link between Church modes and the origins of what is essentially pagan dance music! There are certain coincidences, not least the need for variety of "feel," achieved by having scales starting on different "white" notes, and the exclusion of accidentals, for formal reasons in church music and for probably practical reasons in folk music (inexpensive instruments with limited note ranges or tuning issues), that could lead us to think the link is stronger than it really is. I don't see much use in Irish music for defining tunes as being in Ionian mode, though it's a widespread practice, but at least Aeolian, though it coincides with a classical scale, is useful because it distinguishes its tunes from that other "minor-sounding" bunch, the Dorian tunes. Modern usage, modern usage. We have to decide whether ascribing tunes to modes serves a good purpose or whether it's just pretentious (and error-prone - I probably wasn't the only person reading your post who needed reminding that Aeolian and Ionian are not church modes!). If it gets us talking about tunes we love playing, it's probably a good thing, as long as we don't replace too much playing with nattering!

[benhall.1]

Sorry about "written", Steve. Slip of the pen (slip of the keyboard?) for which I hope you'll forgive me. Yes, a lot of Irish tunes almost certainly postdate the invention of Ionian and Aeolian modes. But the antiquity or otherwise of the tunes wasn't entirely what I was getting at. The Irish tunes which could, according to the pattern of notes, be described as either Ionian or Aeolian, tend to behave more like tunes wr ... (there I go again) (oh, actually, it's OK this time) written in the classical idiom.

Take, for example, The Coleraine jig. It's not in Aeolian. It's in a classical minor key. But it's closer to Aeolian than most 'minor' Irish tunes, which tend to be either in Dorian, or in some gapped scale which doesn't include the sixth at all. Another problem with the invention of Aeolian as a mode, is that it didn't really need to be invented. The old mode system allowed for a flattened sixth in Dorian mode. Flatten the sixth ... eh voila! Aeolian.

[SteveShaw]

The Irish tunes which could, according to the pattern of notes, be described as either Ionian or Aeolian, tend to behave more like tunes wr ... (there I go again) (oh, actually, it's OK this time) written in the classical idiom.

I wonder whether that view (which I tend to agree with by the way!) isn't at least to some extent coloured by the fact that we hear most of the tunes harmonised these days, often in a manner somewhat unsympathetic to modality...