Modes in ITM

[david_h]

That the church described the modes, gave them names (the wrong ones if you are an ancient Greek) and developed what can be done with them doesn't meant they invented them. It was the church that wrote stuff down in those days. I still need convincing that once the diatonic scale had been developed musicians wouldn't explore ways of using it, seeing what they could do by shifting the focus (using that word in the hope that its not a muscial term) from note to note until they had been round the octave. Then the church could ignore any that the guys in charge didn't like, and ban one that the common people liked too much to approve it for worship. Because they (the church folk) was were singing it wouldn't be like using the white notes starting in different places, they would shift the intervals around to keep a comfortable vocal range, but that effect would be the same though harder to describe.

Then, as Will says, people with different instruments would use them in different ways depending on what was available. On a whistle if you want to play in D and dip down to C# before finishing you have to base yourself on the second D, but it won't rule out the bottom octave for the tune. On a recorder you dont have to do that so tunes in D can do different things. Similarly a bagpipe with a low flat 7th can do different things. Referring everything to church modes seems a bit excessive and unnecessary.

[benhall.1]

In normal circumstances - at a session, say - I completely agree with you, David. But this thread is, to be fair, about modes and, secondly, it doesn't help to talk about the wrong modes, especially since, technically speaking, the Greek modes weren't even diatonic, or so I understand.

[david_h]

I like the old church music a lot, and sometime will find time to read and listen to how the melodys work, tenors and finals and that stuff. But as a way of getting a feel for how tunes work, rather than as a 'template'. At the moment dropping Jack Campin's examples into an ABC converter may be more useful to me (well, more useful to me that looking at the dots in some learned tome) . If I thought they were played at local sessions I would set out to learn them all. He keeps updating and refining that document, whenever I look at it there are bits where I can't work out if they are new or just that I didn't pay attention to them before.

[hans]

I think that medieval church modes may be all very interesting, but have probably little or no bearing on Irish traditional music, not in the past and not at present. I think the scales and modes employed in Irish traditional music have a different origin than old church modes. But what do I know, I am not a scholar. In this thread I used modes in the modern sense, not the medieval church mode concept. I assumed that others do the same, i.e. use a modern concept of modes, even though it may use some of the old names. To bring in church modes is just adding confusion. Well, to me anyway.

I started to read through Jack Campin's wonderful online resource:
Scales and Modes in Scottish Traditional Music
http://www.campin.me.uk/Music/Modes/
Not about ITM, but surely there are parallels, and very worthwhile to study.

I hadn't come across this before Hans. It's brilliant. Really useful, and based on observation. Thanks for the link.

But even Jack Campin says that the mode system came from the church modes. I haven't yet come across someone - apart from you, Hans - who doesn't. If it doesn't come from there, where does it come from? I'm asking out of genuine curiosity, because I may be missing something here ...

The music of the Irish or the Scottish people (or any people) is different from the music of the (RC) Church, as used in hymns, chants etc. Medieval theorists tried to serve the latter, and Glarean came up with a mode system useful for that (the church music). The modern system of modes is built on his work, I think. That is what we folk musicians commonly refer to. Most importantly it uses the same names for the seven modes built on a major scale as the medieval system.

Campin is promoting a deeper understanding of the music of the Scottish people, by saying that there are more modes in this music than the modern seven heptatonic modes, that we need to take into account various gapped scale hexatonic and various pentatonic modes too. So on the music theory front (regards Scottish traditional music) he is going beyond the common modern concepts of the theorists and also the musicians. I think it is very worthwhile to explore.

If you look at his diagram of (Scottish) modes here (The Big Picture), you can see some clear dependencies between pentatonic, hexatonic and heptatonic modes (I have to warn that not all will be understood without reading the previous chapters first). From a theorists point of view, the Locrian mode and its relatives are left out, as they have no expression in Scottish traditional music (the music always has a fifth).

Ben, I distinguish between the modes in the music (as integral in the music, and evolved with it) and mode systems to describe these. Modes are part of the tunes, not just a theoretical framework.

As to the origin of these (not the mode systems): I guess the music of the people in Ireland and Scotland did evolve from a few specific pentatonic modes, through music expressed through these modes, and that gradually the wider gaps in these pentatonic modes (minor third intervals) were filled with extra notes, to create a number of hexatonic modes first, and later heptatonic modes, utilising all seven notes of the diatonic scale. The oldest surviving melodies are pentatonic, the youngest are heptatonic.

[benhall.1]

Again, I find myself agreeing with most of what you say, Hans. I would add that, IMO, not all old melodies within the tradition stem from pentatonic. There are quite a few, I would think (though I haven't done a statistical analysis, or anything) of the older tunes that are in fact based on the modes as they now exist. I would suggest that there may well be different strands within the music (well, there clearly are), some of which may have come originally from pentatonic thematic material, and others from modes as we know them today. Still other parts of the music are clearly heavily influenced by developments in early (and later) music of the kind we might loosely describe as "classical".

And yes, I found Campin's approach, in widening out the consideration of modes to be absolutely fascinating, and hugely helpful. Once again, thanks for that link.

[benhall.1]

Put simply: I know that there are some very old tunes (Humours of Ballyloughlin is reputed to be an old tune) that are heptatonic, and that there are new tunes that are pentatonic (The Roaring Barmaid). I'm not sure age of tune determines whether or not it's likely to be pentatonic. I used to think it did ...

[hans]

I agree. I suppose "old" is relative. I imagine a time when there was only pentatonic music, which is probably very far back in time. And the music evolved from there, new melodies being created all the time, and gradually the gaps of the pentatonic modes filled. I don't know if this is true, or when hexatonic modes appeared first, etc. And when musical cross pollination through travel within Europe started.

PS: just reading your last post: yes, of course more recent tunes were added which are plain pentatonic. Just shows that those pentatonic modes are not "extinct", but alive. (I seem to use evolutionary terminology a lot )

[MTGuru]

It's interesting, though, if I recall correctly, that the earliest known flutes - which are also the earliest known tonal instruments - seem to be in diatonic (heptatonic) major. These include the Jiahu crane flute, the recent German find, and perhaps even that Slovenian Neanderthal flute (if it's really a flute). Which, if so, suggests that our bog standard major scale goes back quite far, 9000+ years.

[SteveShaw]

I remember reading something yonks ago (can't for the life of me remember where now) that the jig Out on the Ocean was, anciently, a pentatonic tune that has become embellished with extra notes by modern fashion (in the Planxty version for example - forgiving them the shift to A). I wonder how common that is. Not having old written sources for tunes leaves a good few mysteries of that kind. I note that Jack (who posts frequently on the Mudcat forum by the way) implicitly acknowledges the modal ambiguity of hexatonic and pentatonic tunes. Both kinds are great for diatonic harmonica players because they allow a choice of positions, thereby more scope for "key changes" in sets, a tricky business unless you switch harmonicas. Just think - but for those damn C sharps in Gillan's Apples I'd be able to play it either in first or 12th!

[benhall.1]

It's a good job it isn't in Lydian then, Steve, or you'd REALLY have problems!

[hans]

Yes Steve, but I would not call it "modal ambiguity" of tunes in hexatonic and pentatonic modes. For instance a tune base on D using all notes of the major D scale except the seventh: its notes are part of the major scale, and part of the scale based on the mixolydian mode. But is it not a mode in its own right? What may be looked at as ambiguity is part of its modal character. It is neither major nor mixolydian, or perhaps a fusion, having some characteristics of both, but not all, and thereby its own.

[david_h]

It may be conditioning from the ubiquitous modern major tunes, but I feel that a mixolidian tune without a seventh would be quite distinctly not mixolidian, whearas quite a few major tunes don't have many sevenths and, as in the case of a weak G# when playing in A on a D whistle, they can often be glossed over without too much upset. But do we tend to lay into that flat seventh because it sounds 'different' ?

And 'ambiguity' could either mean simply 'unsure how to classify' or a more puzzling 'there is something I can't quite settle in my mind here'.

(before you guys go away I have a question about The Minstrel Boy, but maybe I should start a 'what do you call it when... ' thread)

[SteveShaw]

Well, perhaps ambiguity may not be quite the correct term, but "open to interpretation" may be better. Here are Jack's headings for hexatonic and pentatonic:

Hexatonic Modes
The Hexatonic Pitch Set
The Major/Mixolydian Hexatonic Mode
The Dorian/Minor Hexatonic Mode
The Mixolydian/Dorian Hexatonic Mode
The Lydian/Major Hexatonic Mode
The Minor/Phrygian Hexatonic Mode

Pentatonic Modes
The Pentatonic Pitch Set
The Mixolydian/Dorian/Minor Pentatonic Mode
The Dorian/Minor/Phrygian Pentatonic Mode
The Lydian/Major/Mixolydian Pentatonic Mode
The Major/Mixolydian/Dorian Pentatonic Mode

[SteveShaw]

It's a good job it isn't in Lydian then, Steve, or you'd REALLY have problems!

It is Lydian which is precisely why I can't do it!

[benhall.1]

SS: It is
Everybody else: No it isn't
SS: Yes it is
Everybody else: No it isn't
SS: Oh-h-h, yes it is
Everybody else: Oh-h-h, no it isn't
etc
etc

I wish I'd summarised it like this a while ago ...