The Dark Side, Luke ...

Wormdiet · Post by **Wormdiet** » Fri May 05, 2006 5:29 am

What I have noticed is how the room I'm playing in seems to affect my tone remarkably. It probably actually doesn't, but it certainly affects what I *hear* myself playing, and that can really throw the ear-brain-lips feedback loop.

If you consider natural reverb as part of tone, then absolutely the room affects tone! I live in a 80 year old house with a central staircase and hardwood floors. The reverb there is simply amazing - it makes one think they are about three years ahead of the game in terms of tonal development. Unfortunately I can't play there regularly because my housemates would become annoyed.

Yup - I also believe that a better accoustic environment allows one to adjust for tone much more easily. In addition to sounding better, one actually does play better due to the feedback loop. More detail to the ears = finer control.

maire · Post by **maire** » Fri May 05, 2006 5:35 am

Sorry still cant agree. I suppose it very much depends on how you were taught and by whom. I thought the link you put up was very interesting Terry, the man must have looked very strange when he was playing, I would have liked to have seen someone play like that if only for a bit of craic!

Surely it must have an impact on the muscles and tendons in the hands and wrist. Then again it would be as un-natural for me to play like that as it would be for others to play with the flute in alignment.

The first thing I will say, is that, I was told by Sam Murray the flute maker that because of the way some of those flutes were made, the best sound from the flute would be achieved by lining the holes up, something to do with the way the air travels through the flute. He also told me that after a while the wood from all the seperate parts will vibrate at the same frquency and contribute to the tone.
When I was learning to play (nearly 20yrs ago) I messed around with the whole twisting the headjoint thing and was soundly told off by Desi Wilkinson in Clare one year for as he put it 'farting around'. I then went back to lining up the flute, and I actually found that my tone was stronger, I could alter the tuning more accurately without having to move the slide at all, and I have never missed a bottom D since then.

Horses for courses I suppose.

Jayhawk · Post by **Jayhawk** » Fri May 05, 2006 5:39 am

maire - by lining up the holes, are you saying you were taught to line up the middle of the embouchure hole with the center of the tone holes? Just curious - you certainly were told by some fine players to do so.

Lots of folks only turn the headjoint so the far edge of the embouchure hole is centered on the middle of the tone holes.

Eric

Wormdiet · Post by **Wormdiet** » Fri May 05, 2006 5:43 am

I'd like to hear some real science behind the "better tone with lined holes" theory. But I suppose scientists have misplaced priorities, like finding a cure for cancer and developing cold fusion electricity.

The other thing about Sam's theory - with an 8-key flute, a fair number of the tone holes can't possibly be aligned because of the key placement

maire · Post by **maire** » Fri May 05, 2006 5:43 am

Step four - Try some music. Nothing fast - we're working on tone here, not dexterity. If you play fast music, you won't have time to make the little adjustments needed to optimise each note. And you wont have time to evaluate the tone colour of each note. A song tune, an air, something with long notes, or just noodle. Use both modes ("nice" and "dark") to confirm your progress

I like your advice here. Thought that this statement was very important. Most new players should watch the Karate kid a few times before they launch into playing any insrument.

maire · Post by **maire** » Fri May 05, 2006 5:47 am

maire - by lining up the holes, are you saying you were taught to line up the middle of the embouchure hole with the center of the tone holes? Just curious - you certainly were told by some fine players to do so.
JayHawk, that is exactly what I was told to do. In fact I think I would be hard pressed to find a good player in my neck of the woods who would twist the joint. I can only think of one and that would be Brendan Carson from Co.Down. Even at that I'm not sure that he actually turns it to any great degree.
But as Terry pointed out, there are obviously differences of opinion on this, and maybe I am the one doing it wrong.
Like I say, Horses for Courses.

maire · Post by **maire** » Fri May 05, 2006 5:56 am

I'd like to hear some real science behind the "better tone with lined holes" theory. But I suppose scientists have misplaced priorities, like finding a cure for cancer and developing cold fusion electricity.

Wormdiet, I wouldnt pretend to be any expert at all on this, I can however tell you what was passed on to me in this part of the world.
Sam, if I remember correctly meant that the scale, B,A,G, F, E, D, should be aligned with the blow hole.
I can only go on the observations I make while playing over the years and from the players I associate with. Here we find that it is mostly beginners who turn the head, and usually because they have no faith in their own burgeoning abilities to finally get the tone they want, we call that fishing for the note.

Wormdiet · Post by **Wormdiet** » Fri May 05, 2006 6:12 am

maire wrote: Wormdiet, I wouldnt pretend to be any expert at all on this, I can however tell you what was passed on to me in this part of the world.
Sam, if I remember correctly meant that the scale, B,A,G, F, E, D, should be aligned with the blow hole.

Maire,

I certainly am not an expert on any of this, as I think everybody knows by now! Re-reading my post, it comes across in a manner not intended (Which is to say, lighthearted). Really, I *would* like someone with accoustics expertise to take a look at this issue because it's interesting and the results would be useful. Please accept my apology.

Loren · Post by **Loren** » Fri May 05, 2006 6:19 am

Ro3b wrote:

I have noticed that most players whose tone I've admired don't turn the headjoint in, though. Chris Norman being the one exception I can think of.

Who's on the list of "admired but doesn't turn in"? Would be interesting, just for kicks, to see what sort of variety is out there (with regards to turning in or not) among the "Well known" players - well known only because few will have any point of reference (listening wise) for local players.

Loren

maire · Post by **maire** » Fri May 05, 2006 7:12 am

Wormdiet, you are an eegit!

No offence taken, and for my part none intended. I just feel cautious talking about something that I have a limited knowledge of as I am sure you can well understand. But after speaking to a few of the mates here, they mostly agree that it isnt good to turn the flute too far. But then again who is to say what is right or wrong, in traditional music part of the charm is the fact that there are no hard and fast rules, unlike Classical or other genres of music. I suppose if the positioning of the flute works for you in that context, you couldnt be going too far wrong.
Bu it is fun discusing how other people play and the differing opinions on syle and such. Is it not?
All I know is that it doesnt work for me to turn the headjoint.

bradhurley · Post by **bradhurley** » Fri May 05, 2006 7:13 am

I think this is one of those areas where the optimal configuration varies from person to person. I turn my headjoint in ever-so-slightly, so that the center of the embouchure hole is just a few hairs to the left of center of the toneholes, when sighting along the flute from the bottom. That produces the optimal tone for my way of blowing. But when I let other flute players try my flute, they always adjust the headjoint. Some of them line up the center of the embouchure hole with the center of the tone holes, while others turn the headjoint in radically. I've even met players who turn the headjoint out and they sound great.

Just find whatever angle works best for you and use it. And find an angle that you can set consistently. Everything needs to be where you expect it to be; if you line up the flute differently each time, you won't be able to get a consistent tone.

Loren · Post by **Loren** » Fri May 05, 2006 7:22 am

How much one turns a HJ in also depends on what angle the embouchure far (blown) wall is cut: While there is a more or less "Standard" angle, I've seen some pretty wide variations, and so, in order to get the same "effect" tone wise, one needs to roll the HJ more or less to achive a certain relationship between the airstream and the angle of the embouchure wall - this is known as the "Angle of Attack" in aerodynamics.

Loren

Terry McGee · Post by **Terry McGee** » Fri May 05, 2006 7:23 am

Wormdiet wrote:
maire wrote: Wormdiet, I wouldnt pretend to be any expert at all on this, I can however tell you what was passed on to me in this part of the world.
Sam, if I remember correctly meant that the scale, B,A,G, F, E, D, should be aligned with the blow hole.
Maire,

I certainly am not an expert on any of this, as I think everybody knows by now! Re-reading my post, it comes across in a manner not intended (Which is to say, lighthearted). Really, I *would* like someone with accoustics expertise to take a look at this issue because it's interesting and the results would be useful. Please accept my apology.

I think we can be confident that Sam wasn't suggesting that any acoustic advantage flows from aligning the main run of holes with the embouchure hole - I can certainly confirm that it doesn't. It doesn't matter, as far as the flute is concerned, where around the diameter a hole is placed - the results will be the same. The oscillating airstream runs up and down the flute (apart from a little confusion at the top), so length from embouchure to hole is the only issue. You can test this yourself by rotating the sections of your flute. I wouldn't expect any significant difference (can't try it myself right now, I'll wake the baby!)

I think we can be equally confident that Sam simply regards lining up all the holes as good practice, in the same way that modern classical flute players do. It seems to be something that came in around the 1830-50 period, possibly influenced by Boehm, and certainly resisted by Rockstro. The earliest proponent I can remember is Gunn, a Scottish flute player and teacher, somewhere around 1792. Interestingly, Gunn was strongly in favour of directing the jet towards the centre of the flute, so it shows the two issues are not necessarily entwined.

Indeed, Maire, it would be interesting to hear from you on this - where do you feel you are directing your airstream - towards the far edge of the hole, or deep down into the flute? Perhaps we should also ask - are you consciously aiming for a dark tone, and if so, do you feel you achieve it, and do you feel that where you aim the air is relevant to achieving it?

Terry

Jayhawk · Post by **Jayhawk** » Fri May 05, 2006 7:24 am

maire - I'm finding this an interesting conversation. One follow-up question, do you play with the tone holes facing straight up? Or, do your wrists lead to a roll of the flute slightly to the side?

I'm wondering if you're blowing directly across the embouchure hole or more into the hole, and if so, how.

Thanks,

Eric

Ro3b · Post by **Ro3b** » Fri May 05, 2006 7:36 am

Who's on the list of "admired but doesn't turn in"?

Paul McGrattan, Eamonn Cotter, Paul Roche, Conal O' Grada. Frankie Gavin from what I've been able to observe. Like Maire, I actually don't think I've seen anybody in Ireland who rolls in. Patrick Olwell turns the headjoint in a very little bit, almost not enough to matter from what I can tell. (I've noticed that whenever he hands someone a flute to try, he just sticks the headjoint on any old way, knowing the person will have their own preference for rolling in or not.)