pipers grip vs. normal

[jim stone]

please explain the reason(s) why classical grip is more agile and nimble, other than thru mere belief and and secondhand opinion

If there are no objections, I'll take a stab at answering this:

--it's the only approach I am aware of which frees up the left hand thumb to work the B-flat touch (specifically, the Rockstro grip);

--it's the only grip which is suitable to the Boehm-system flute, as use of piper's grip will force the mechanism out of alignment and may even cause mechanical damage to the instrument.

That said, there are many fine players of simple system flutes who use various other grips, and they play quite well.

Every person is different; each flute player at some point has to find an approach to holding the instrument that works best for him.

--James

Agreed. Also if I may, my experience (of course I own its
limitations) isn't 'mere belief.' Nor is the teaching of a widely
respected and recorded teacher mere 'opinion,' unless
we wish to beg the question. In addition I've talked with orthopaedic
hand specialists who work with the symphony here in St. Louis,
who said the same thing, relating it to how fingers work,
tendons, etc.

For these reasons I believe classical is a little more agile,
but I certainly don't claim to know it.

As to Grey, he recommends classical over pipers. He began
using pipers than shifted to classical so he could use the
Bb key on his flute. He found it had other advantages, he writes.

He says 'it seems to him' that classical better distributes the
weight of the flute on the left hand, which in pipers is borne
largely by the left thumb, which can be placed in a hyper-extended
position and become sore.' He says it's his opinion.

One certainly can disagree with him about this (I've never had
that difficulty with piper's grip), but calling this 'quite dismissive'
seems inaccurate, unless expressing a definite opinion that
there are reasons to favor one grip over another is 'quite
dismissive.'

[rama]

please explain the reason(s) why classical grip is more agile and nimble, other than thru mere belief and and secondhand opinion

If there are no objections, I'll take a stab at answering this:

--it's the only approach I am aware of which frees up the left hand thumb to work the B-flat touch (specifically, the Rockstro grip);

--it's the only grip which is suitable to the Boehm-system flute, as use of piper's grip will force the mechanism out of alignment and may even cause mechanical damage to the instrument.

That said, there are many fine players of simple system flutes who use various other grips, and they play quite well.

Every person is different; each flute player at some point has to find an approach to holding the instrument that works best for him.

--James

Agreed. Also if I may, my experience (of course I own its
limitations) isn't 'mere belief.' Nor is the teaching of a widely
respected and recorded teacher mere 'opinion,' unless
we wish to beg the question. In addition I've talked with orthopaedic
hand specialists who work with the symphony here in St. Louis,
who said the same thing, relating it to how fingers work,
tendons, etc.

For these reasons I believe classical is a little more agile,
but I certainly don't claim to know it.

As to Grey, he recommends classical over pipers. He began
using pipers than shifted to classical so he could use the
Bb key on his flute. He found it had other advantages, he writes.

He says 'it seems to him' that classical better distributes the
weight of the flute on the left hand, which in pipers is borne
largely by the left thumb, which can be placed in a hyper-extended
position and become sore.' He says it's his opinion.

One certainly can disagree with him about this (I've never had
that difficulty with piper's grip), but calling this 'quite dismissive'
seems inaccurate, unless expressing a definite opinion that
there are reasons to favor one grip over another is 'quite
dismissive.'

a simple 'no, i cannot explain why it is more agile and nimble' would have sufficed.

[Rob Sharer]

Read on, Jim. In the section headed "A further comment on the piper's hold," Grey expresses his opinion that the piper's hold (and let's take that to mean the Irish hold as well) is "unnatural for the flute." I'd call that a dismissal. One imagines Mr. Larsen combing the Wild West, unearthing fossilized flute players in order to determine what's the "natural" grip. My alternate hold looks and feels quite natural to me, and I'm not the least bit troubled by the concerns G.L raises. Problem for him, not for me and many others.

Meanwhile, don't mind the Bb key. I'm not basing my entire system of holding the flute on one lousy key. Cheers,

Rob

[peeplj]

Meanwhile, don't mind the Bb key. I'm not basing my entire system of holding the flute on one lousy key.

My B-flat key gets pretty frequent use; of course, how much you use yours will depend on what tunes you like to play and whether or not you play any other kinds of music on your flute.

If you have the B-flat key, it's very handy to be able to use it.

That's my own $.02 on the matter, probably worth exactly what you paid to read it.

--James

[rama]

james, valid point for accesing b-flat key on the flute. of course as you know it only seems relevant to someone who has one and actually cares to use it, instead of usng alternate fingering methods for attaining the same note.

[peeplj]

james, valid point for accesing b-flat key on the flute. of course as you know it only seems relevant to someone who has one and actually cares to use it, instead of usng alternate fingering methods for attaining the same note.

Very true.

In fact, I have read that on many German and French 8-key (and up) flutes, one of the design goals was to keep as many of the Baroque flute's cross-fingerings available for the chromatic notes as possible, so that the flutist could use either, depending on desire and circumstance.

As you move towards the larger tone holes and different bore profile of the English flutes and the Irish flutes we now play that are based on them, you lose more and more of the cross-fingerings.

Some makers are still making flutes designed to use both. Here's a lovely keyed traverso:

http://www.baroqueflute.com/models/Tromlitz.html

Note that this is also available with the right-hand B-flat touch discussed earlier on the boards.

This would be a wonderful flute for early and classical music but possibly not the ideal session flute. Undeniably, it would be a very versatile instrument, though capable of being played either as a keyed flute or as a Baroque traverso.

--James

[jim stone]

Read on, Jim. In the section headed "A further comment on the piper's hold," Grey expresses his opinion that the piper's hold (and let's take that to mean the Irish hold as well) is "unnatural for the flute." I'd call that a dismissal. One imagines Mr. Larsen combing the Wild West, unearthing fossilized flute players in order to determine what's the "natural" grip. My alternate hold looks and feels quite natural to me, and I'm not the least bit troubled by the concerns G.L raises. Problem for him, not for me and many others.

Meanwhile, don't mind the Bb key. I'm not basing my entire system of holding the flute on one lousy key. Cheers,

Rob

Again it's helpful to quote the entire passage, if you wish to evaluate it
accurately. Taking something alone and out of context isn't
a good way to go. One needs to count it all. The danger is what's
called, as you probably know, 'meretricious quotation,' that is,
quotation out of context.

So, having said that it seems to him that piper's places the flute's
weight 'much more on the top thumb alone, which is often put into
an abnormally extended position, which, after long playing periods he found led to soreness in his own case, Grey takes up the obvious
objection that uillean pipers do use a hold similar to the one
he recommends against.

He writes that 'for them, the top thumb is not bearing weight and pressure. In fact, it is left free to cover and uncover the thumb hole on the
back of the chanter. The tin whistle is held vertically like the chanter
of the uillean pipes, and its hold, which is very similar to that of the uillean pipe chanter, also places no signficant weight or stress on the top
thumb.'

He concludes the passage: 'This piper's type hold is natural for the tin whistle but is
unnatural for the flute in my opinion.' (p. 92).

That isn't dismissive, Rob. It's a careful and reasoned argument
for the conclusion that piper's is unnatural for the flute,
though it works for pipes and whistle, because it places
too much stress on the thumb. Note he considers an objection
and responds to it carefully. It's only if you take
'unnatural for the flute' out of context that there's the
appearance of dismissal. But that's not fair.

Here's dismissive: 'As to piper's grip, nobody who plays flute
seriously thinks it's any good. Let's not waste any time on it.'
To be dismissive is to reject a position
without really considering it.

Now that doesn't mean Grey's right! Or that his argument
actually works. But a careful, reasoned argument, based
on personal experience, considering objections, for the
conclusion that, in his opinion, piper's grip is less good,
isn't dismissive, not to mention 'quite dismissive.' There are
bad arguments that are careful, reasoned, based on
personal experience, alive to objections. Not all bad
arguments are dismissive.

Unless there's no way to argue carefully and at length against a position
without being 'dismissive' of it. Which is false. You can be
reasonably careful, alive to objections, and so on, and
get it wrong. But you're still not dismissive of the position
you mistakenly rejected.

Forgive the pedantry! It's just that it seems sometimes that
people can't disagree with a view without mischaracterizing
it or mistating it. My business largely consists of demolishing
views, and the first step in that process, I've learned, is
to state the view or the argument I wish to
destroy, as fairly and favorably as I can.

As to the real thrust of your post, that Grey's argument is weak
because a lot of people simply don't have the thumb problem,
I think you're right. That's what he relies on, chiefly, and I don't
have it, either.

Also I agree entirely about the Bb key. I find it entirely
dispensable, because I find Bb the easiest note
to half-hole. All the best, Jim

[rama]

jim, it is indeed a dismissal if grey's basis is 1) his own somewhat inept experience with piper's grip; along with failure to 2) consider many succussful itm players who do use it, then 3) write a book on how to hold the flute without acknowledging both 1) and 2).

[jim stone]

jim, it is indeed a dismissal if grey's basis is 1) his own someone inept experience with piper's grip; along with failure to 2) consider many succussful itm players who do use it, then 3) write a book on how to hold the flute without acknowledging both 1) and 2).

I disagree. It's just an unpersuasive argument.
He takes the view seriously, he gives detailed
reasons against it, he does try to be fair. Being 'dismissive' is
where you don't do that.

[SteveB]

Does anyone know if any of the accomplished players who use piper's grip actually advocate its general use? I've heard that one of the first things Gary Shannon tells his students is to not hold the flute like he does if at all possible!

[rama]

jim, it is indeed a dismissal if grey's basis is 1) his own someone inept experience with piper's grip; along with failure to 2) consider many succussful itm players who do use it, then 3) write a book on how to hold the flute without acknowledging both 1) and 2).

I disagree. It's just an unpersuasive argument.
He takes the view seriously, he gives detailed
reasons against it, he does try to be fair. Being 'dismissive' is
where you don't do that.

yes clearly we do disagree on this.

rob sharer's point is still a valid one until proven otherwise.

[jemtheflute]

Does anyone know if any of the accomplished players who use piper's grip actually advocate its general use? I've heard that one of the first things Gary Shannon tells his students is to not hold the flute like he does if at all possible!

Interesting!

Going back to Whistle Collector's original point/query and most recent posts, I'd like to add this......

Unless a person has a) a specific medical condition affecting hands and arms or b) hands that are beyond the "normal" size range - either very small or very large and thickset - to an extent that they just don't fit on a concert flute, they should be able to be taught the "normal/classical/Rockstro" method of flute support, and, if applied correctly (yes, here I will talk in terms of "right" or "wrong") it should not cause any hurt, strain or discomfort. If it does, either the person is doing it wrong (which can be fixed) or they have an underlying problem. For example, I have seen people with very thickset hands who simply lacked the flexibility in the fingers to bend them to allow them to hold a flute in "normal" fashion. This might qualify as a medical condition, I suppose, if it is (for example) congenital or the result of manual labour. I have more than once been amazed to see a farmer or builder with huge and battered hands, with fingers almost as thick as the finger board, pick up and delicately and accurately play the fiddle.

Done properly, the "normal" method of support should not involve un-natural twisting of the wrist nor cramping of the L hand fingers, which should be at least as free (and probably more so) to do bouncy taps and rolls as they might be with "piper's hold" on pipes or whistle. If L1 or thumb start to ache, that is a symptom of "Flute Death Grip", i.e. pinching or squeezing the tube - stop squeezing, relax, get the three point support right, and the discomfort will go away.

All that said, there is no one "correct" way of holding any instrument. There are principles for establishing the optimum method and configuration for each individual, taking account of his/her particular physique. That certainly applies within the "normal" technique. Everyone's hands have slightly different proportions, as do their arms, shoulder width, etc. etc., so one cannot usefully make precise rules for everyone. One can, however, lay out a "recipe" - a set of methodical steps - by which to help a player establish how to find their own optimum posture and secure support according to sensible (scientifically determined) physiological and mechanical principles - and to assess it for themselves and go on re-assessing and adapting as their experience and proficiency grow. An experienced eye can help by identifying bad habits or misunderstanding/misapplication of the guiding principles - that is what teaching is for/about. These points would also hold true within "piper's" and other variant methods of support. We are as surely teaching here as we are doing anything.

[flutefry]

Seems to me that everyone agrees that Irish flutes can be played at a very high standard with a variety of grips; that different folks will play with different grips depending on their physique and preferences.

It sounds to me like a semantic argument. If different grips sork well enough to play at a very high standard, then is optimal relevant? Or does optimal default to "most people can use this grip, so why not try it first".

Or is there really an optimum? The issue as yet undecided is whether it is more efficient to play with curved fingers (necessary for the Rockstro grip), or flatter fingers (necessary for the piper's grip).

Here's my argument from first principles. I have no idea if it's right, and I am not appealing to any authority, just watching myself and seeing what happens. Drop your arms to your sides. Look at your fingers. They are curved. Same thing if you lie down, or just put your hands in your lap. My assumption is that this the resting or neutral position (requires least energy to maintain). Now straighten your curved fingers. I feel the back of my hand contract, and see my tendons move. This tells me that I have to put energy in to straighten my fingers. Now here's the second assumption. It's more efficient to move from a relaxed position because less energy is required to move the fingers from neutral, compared to having to use energy to hold your fingers straight AND move them. If this argument is valid, over time, a player using the Rockstro grip will use less energy, and thus this group is more efficient.

So I conclude that energetically, there probably is an optimum, but operationally, it doesn't matter. Having said that, I think that tension is the enemy, and that regardless of what grip you use, it's well worth checking to see whether tension is building.

Hugh

[jim stone]

jim, it is indeed a dismissal if grey's basis is 1) his own someone inept experience with piper's grip; along with failure to 2) consider many succussful itm players who do use it, then 3) write a book on how to hold the flute without acknowledging both 1) and 2).

I disagree. It's just an unpersuasive argument.
He takes the view seriously, he gives detailed
reasons against it, he does try to be fair. Being 'dismissive' is
where you don't do that.

yes clearly we do disagree on this.

rob sharer's point is still a valid one until proven otherwise.

What matters to me isn't the word 'dismissive,' but the difference
between an honest failure, on the one hand, and a failure
of integrity on the other.

There are honest mistakes and
bad arguments given by people who are actually thinking
about something, but not necessarily well.

On the other hand, sometimes people just bat something
away without trying to consider it. They're cavalier,
they don't care, they're arrogant.

I think Grey's argument is of the first sort, not the second.
He tried to do justice to the issue, he certainly thought
about it, whatever we think of the result.
Personally I think the resulting argument is
a weak one.

I don't like 'dismissive' or 'quite dismissive,'
because I believe it connotes the second, and
Grey, I know him, is an honest and thoughtful man.
He has a lot of integrity.

By the way, to answer your earlier question, which I may have
misunderstood. IF there is an advantage in agility to
classical, I think part of its explanation is that the ends of
fingers fit holes more precisely and are more sensitive.
Also a less extended finger (e.g. a curved one)
moves with less force and strain and more quickly.

But again, I don't believe I know classical grip is (a bit) more nimble.
I just believe it is.

[cocusflute]

I am drowning in words.....
This is the long and short of it:

...tension is the enemy... regardless of what grip you use...

Thanks to fruit fly...