Just intonation whistles - how?

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Re: Just intonation whistles - how?

Post by benhall.1 »

david_h wrote:You OK out there Ben ?
Yeah, sorry ... yesterday turned out to be one long slog ... followed by a lovely evening out (well, lovely for me - pity my poor SO being dragged along and kept out half the night :oops: ) buying yet more flutes (FlOA).

So, I've only just got back to this now.

What can I say? MT Guru answered my original question perfectly I thought. But it really is a fascinating topic, isn't it? Hence all the other interesting posts above. Because nothing quite works - no musical system of intonation quite 'fits together' - there seems to be no end to the thinking that one can do on this. But, in the end, it does seem to me that, whatever system your whistle is tuend in, you're going to have to blow it 'into tune' (depending on the context, mode, whether you're playing solo, whether there are boxes etc). I think I'd want the whistle that will do that most easily, which, for me, at any rate, is likely to be one tuned to ET, that I can then play into tune.
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Re: Just intonation whistles - how?

Post by MTGuru »

hans wrote:Why?
Sorry, I was grumpy. Yes, the dead horse. And an inkling that some posts here were not really about addressing Ben's actual question. :wink:
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Re: Just intonation whistles - how?

Post by hans »

MTGuru wrote:Sorry, I was grumpy. Yes, the dead horse. And an inkling that some posts here were not really about addressing Ben's actual question. :wink:
Okay. But does the latter not happen in most threads? I am sure Ben will pick out what he needs. And for me at least the topic of just intonation and modes is not beaten to death, but still worthy of exploration. I am a bit sensitive about it since two previous threads about modes got locked "for review" and lost for further discussion. But enough people showed an interest in these matters again and again, so it is hardly irrelevant.
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Re: Just intonation whistles - how?

Post by hans »

highland-piper wrote:
hans wrote:I did not mean that all fifths should be pure. That won't work. See this comparison between Pythagorean, Indian and Western Just Major:
Pythagorean won't work for what?
It won't work for the traditional music we love.
The Pythagorean tuning on a D major scale gives a sharp F# and C# compared to ET, but we want both to be a bit flat from their ET equivalent for the music to sound okay.
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Re: Just intonation whistles - how?

Post by hans »

talasiga wrote:BTW folks can you now see why what we consider as "modes" of a scale are actually scales in their own right?

JI Aeolian cannot be had as a relative of a JI Ionian (as is faked in ET).
You don't automatically get a B Aeolian that sounds good to the ear using the notes of D Ionian.
Yes, good points! And the rest of your post, concerning solo playing!

It encourages me to think that the Indian JI major tuning is really the best basis for a just intoned whistle or flute. It leaves the problem with the fifth for B Aeolian on a D whistle, but it gives a good Dorian instead, which is more important. And let's play in B Aeolian on an A whistle!
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Re: Just intonation whistles - how?

Post by david_h »

Given the very close relationship between volume and pitch on a whistle isn't its 'intonation profile' intimately linked to its 'volume profile' ? I don't find blowing a just F# up to ET a great problem but I have no illusions that I can change the pitch at all without changing the volume. And as a result I am not playing the tune the way I play it solo.

Watching the experts on Youtube I have the impression, particularly when playing slow airs, that there is a lot of shading of holes going on. By doing that I can decrease the pitch a little at constant volume or play a little louder without going sharp. That makes me think that a whistle slightly sharp of JI, which for most notes is the case with ET, may allow more flexibility.
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Re: Just intonation whistles - how?

Post by fiddlerwill »

I find the subject very interesting and it is very relevant to what I play and the instruments I play on, more please :)
The mind is like a parachute; it only works when it is open.


Heres a few tunes round a table, first three sets;

http://soundcloud.com/fiddlerwill/werty
http://soundcloud.com/fiddlerwill/jigs-willie
http://soundcloud.com/fiddlerwill/jigs
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Re: Just intonation whistles - how?

Post by hans »

Okay how about a practical experiment?
Take a whistle which is ET tuned, I took my Burke low D, I think all Burke's whistles are ET tuned, and quite precisely. Then take some cellotape and put a bit over holes 2 and 5, covering the top quarter, roughly. Use a tuner to get the F# and the B ca. 15 cents flat, blowing normally. Now the whistle should be easier to play in JI.

Now play Tabhai Dom Lamh (Give me your Hand). This air has lots of prominent Bs, in both octaves. The F# is irrelevant here. So we just see how the Bs feel in this tune. It might take a little to sink into the JI tuning. How does it feel to play the air with flat Bs (flat to ET)? Take the tape off and play again to feel the difference.

To me it sounds better with the JI Bs (flat to ET). What do you think?

I am aware that this will not harmonise quite with E minor chords played to the Bs, because the B is flat and not a pure fifth above the E. But harmonisation and chordal accompaniment are different problems.
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Re: Just intonation whistles - how?

Post by highland-piper »

hans wrote:
I am aware that this will not harmonise quite with E minor chords played to the Bs, because the B is flat and not a pure fifth above the E. But harmonisation and chordal accompaniment are different problems.
I think that many people (no one in particular in this discussion, btw, but many people in a generic sense) put a lot of weight on the theory, and not enough investigation into the practice. So they do some math, and they say, a ha! You can't use JI because this note doesn't line up with that one, so it can't work.

But in practice the ear doesn't necessarily hear things the same way the theory suggests. Theory is, afterall, an attempt to explain practice, not a recipe for success.

Regarding using a JI solo instrument with chordal accompaniement the theory would lead one to believe that if you played a whistle with JI, then the "problem" pointed out above would be a problem, but my ears tell me it probably isn't. I listen to a lot of recordings of bagpipes, including some celtic-rock and other types of modern mixed ensembles. Most of the pipers in the celtic-rock scene tune their bagpipes normally, and play with ET accompaniment (guitar or other frettet strings, typically). One band in particular is Clandestine. I asked the piper (EJ Jones) about how he tunes, so I know he tunes his chanter to his drones (harmonically just). He never sounds out of tune or in-harmonious, even though nearly every track they've recorded in many years has ET accompaniment.

I'm not proposing any theory to explain this fact, but a fact it is -- you can mix JI solo instruments with ET accompaniment and it sounds just fine. There could be ways to mix them that don't sound fine as well, but there are ways that work out. Another interesting example is from classical music -- in the violin sonata, a solo violin is accompanied by a piano. The piano is obviously ET. The violinist though, doesn't play ET, except in (fairly rare) spots in the music where the piano and the violin are in unison.
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Re: Just intonation whistles - how?

Post by david_h »

I logged on to say that the experiment suggested by hans may take me some time, that I think I would have to really put some time in on that tune with the whistle in one tuning, record myself, then work on it in the other tuning and record myself, then analyse the recordings to see what I was doing.

But I got to thinking this is only something that bothers me when it bothers me. It bothers me when I can't play a tune solo how I want to. As I was going on about in the other thread the mode that bugs me most then is E dorian. If playing with a recording (often) or other people (only been doing that for a few months) an inbuilt urge try to be in tune over-rides the dynamics or subtleties of the scale so I try to blow into tune. That sometimes bothers me but in most cases the simple option then is to play the flute instead of a D whistle, which reduces the amount of time I am bothered. And to be honest, I don't really like the top half of the second octave on a D whistle in my hands anyway.

Summary - for me its a 'solo unaccompanied' issue.
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Re: Just intonation whistles - how?

Post by tin-titan »

Whether or not this discussion was beating a dead or even comatose horse, could someone direct me to a thread here or some resource that would explain the basics of this topic to a clueless bloke like myself? I see and here the phrase like, "the whistle is 20 cents off or sharp or whatever". I thirst for knowledge. My parched mind craves the cool, soothing relief of knowledge.
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Re: Just intonation whistles - how?

Post by david_h »

Off-hand I can't suggest anything for the theory (someone will) but if you have microphone on the computer a simple practical link between the sounds and the numbers can be had by downloading the 'autotuner' from here: http://www1.ocn.ne.jp/~tuner/tuner_e.html
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Re: Just intonation whistles - how?

Post by highland-piper »

tin-titan wrote:Whether or not this discussion was beating a dead or even comatose horse, could someone direct me to a thread here or some resource that would explain the basics of this topic to a clueless bloke like myself? I see and here the phrase like, "the whistle is 20 cents off or sharp or whatever". I thirst for knowledge. My parched mind craves the cool, soothing relief of knowledge.
I like this web page:

http://www.kylegann.com/tuning.html

The wikipedia entries on just intonation and equal temperament are informative as well, but some of the authors are biased.
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Re: Just intonation whistles - how?

Post by hans »

highland-piper wrote: I like this web page:

http://www.kylegann.com/tuning.html

The wikipedia entries on just intonation and equal temperament are informative as well, but some of the authors are biased.
You find some bias everywhere :)
The author of the page you link to is biased towards synthesizers :D
and there is too much about big number ratios.
Anyway, here is the wikipedia link:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Just_intonation

The section about Indian scales mentions the use of both 5:3 and 27:16 for the Sixth, depending what fits better. I only mentioned 27:16, so I stand corrected. It does outline the issue of wolf intervals, but says that in the melodic context of Indian music, with just the use of drones, it is not a problem. Same goes for the Irish and Scottish music tradition, which is not polyphonic.
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Re: Just intonation whistles - how?

Post by fiddlerwill »

Years ago As a backer, I would tune to the D and G. But when I get these chords just right a shift into Em could easily fall flat as the guitar was suddenly out of tune, using open chords, its quite possible to play in a form of mean tone temperement, of which there are many.
Also ET was designed to remedy a problem that simply doesnt occur in Traditional and medieval/ renaissance music.
I do find the charts a bit strange Hans. I operate in JI. To me ET and the mean tone temperements should be related to JI and not the other way round. So the base line is perfect intervals, not ET, which in fact only really took off in the last century. Even though Piano tuners thought they were tuning ET, in fact they were leaning towards certain keys in some form of MT temperement. see '' ET and how it ruined Harmony'


As a backer, I dont tune to ET. I use a sweetened temperment,( using my tuner) or by ear I tune to the common chords we find in the music I play, D, G Em and Am.and adjust , by ear, to what sounds right. As my ear feels JI and perfect fifths thirds, and fourths to sound right, this is my aim, and I do retune depending on the keys we play in. If playing with a GHB piper, I tune to A Mix and D major. and would likely adjust, on the fly , to a Bm shift.
Playing with UP, I tune to D and G, these chords need to sound right, ET does not sound right to me. its Ok, but 'dead' bland, lifeless. Only by being accurately in tune does the music take off IMO. In ITM there is simply no need to be able to play in every key. I have no need for C#m etc.

I am interested in the theory to explain some of the experiances I have had over the past quarter century backing and playing ITM. Hans comparison above explained why shifting to Em can not work sometimes when the guitar is in tune with D and G....Thankyou.
The mind is like a parachute; it only works when it is open.


Heres a few tunes round a table, first three sets;

http://soundcloud.com/fiddlerwill/werty
http://soundcloud.com/fiddlerwill/jigs-willie
http://soundcloud.com/fiddlerwill/jigs
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