A new make of wooden whistles

[AvienMael]

Well, I think that the Clarke claim is one made by a manufacturer, rather than a maker. It has gone largely unchallenged by other manufacturers, and stood the test of time thus far. Let's not confuse things. The claim isn't that Clarke made the first whistle - everyone knows this isn't the case... it pertains more to a re-development of the instrument for quicker, cheaper, larger-scale mass-production, that led to a sustained proliferation and relative popularity of the instrument due to it's low cost. While there may have been other similar whistles that predate Clarkes, none of them aspired to make this claim, in any documented source, anywhere, that we know of. Clarke still exists. No other maker or manufacturer from that time period does. There is no one who can rightfully dispute the claim, so it really doesn't matter if someone doesn't want to take it at face value - they are in no position to argue with it.

How many thousands of Burkes are out in the world now? - Or thousands of Copelands? No one disputes the relative uniquity of their respective design refinements among whistles, nor their contributions to the "evolution" of the whistle as we know it today. Yet their proliferation is owing to an entirely different set of circumstances, in a different age of technologies, but that probably won't diminish their rightful places in the hearts and minds of those who appreciate them. So what separates them from others is that they took the whistle in a slightly different direction, and this is all that the Clarke claim is suggesting. I for one, see no reason to believe otherwise.

[snakewriggle]

Yuri, you may be boring your whistles but you aren't boring me.

I'm not a whistle snob. I like the sound of them and that's why I play them. But recorders have their place. No recorders, no "Stairway to Heaven."

My impression is that the fancier whistles have complex bores. Whereas cheap recorders, I imagine, have simple bores.

If recorders are optimized for cross-fingering and an even tone, what are whistles optimized for?

Would it be possible to make an instrument that is intermediate between a whistle and a recorder? Or is there a definite line between dodecatonic and heptatonic fipple flutes?

[Mr.Gumby]

If recorders are optimized for cross-fingering and an even tone, what are whistles optimized for?

I think you'll find a lot of whistles aren't optimised for anything.

Just for the record: some of the conical metal 19th century French whistles will play a satisfactory cross-fingered chromatic scale.

[snakewriggle]

I think you'll find a lot of whistles aren't optimised for anything.

Well, my latest purchase, a US $3.50 Schylling, is optimized for a landfill.

I suppose Yuri's are optimized for something else though.

[Yuri]

Hmmm, that's an interesting question, all right.
I suppose consciously they (I mean, my) whistles are not optimized for anyting much. That's a good sales pitch, isn't it? Well, on the other hand there are a whole lot of points that any maker will be chasing. (Usually quite unsuccesfully, at least it is the case with me.) These points are seldom spelled out, but boil down to simply the preferred sound, response, fingering ease, etc, etc. Basically, what a maker finds the right result. After all, as players, you guys know very well that differnt makes of whistles (and any other instrument, for that matter) vary quite a lot, and yet all good quality instruments have their place and their adherents. And even the same player will have usually more than a single make, for different music. So if I would be called on to describe just what my whisles are good for, I either would have to retreat into a sort of wine-talk (you know the "has a slight hint of jasmin flower, overlaying a definite basic foundation of diesel oil.) or simply not talk at all. Being the guy I am, I prefer poignant silence. The instrument can, after all, speak for themselves.
Which reminds me. Jack, how about you come out with the links to the great music you recorded if you are satisfied with the quality?

[Flexismart]

Hey, sure Yuri.

Here are some links to sound files that I made with Yuri's High D whistle. (The tracks are a little rough - there were some ghosts that appeared in the MP3 conversion that weren't in the WAV versions - but I think they represent pretty well).
I've played this whistle in my studio and on stage. It's sweet, direct, in tune, reedy, lightweight, with little chiff.
I'll be writing a summary of my impressions of it in a few days.
Here goes.........

For those of you who prefer box.net:
Poll ha' penny
http://www.box.net/shared/6lu2ikbyj9
Will you come away with me?
http://www.box.net/shared/73r7haunxa
Finore
http://www.box.net/shared/1ldrkxvoir

For those of you who would rather use QuickTime - they're on my website with Yuri's name on them:
http://www.toppish.com/Beta/Jack_Lindbe ... dings.html

[Yuri]

Thank you very much, Jack, and I, for one, am curious to hear the impressions.

Meanwhile, here's the time to do something about a tour.
For a beginning, MtGuru, do you have some ideas about that? There seems to be some interest. The high D that Jack has at the moment can be the starting point of an American tour. I have a couple more, that can go to Europe, and possibly Aussie, if there is enough interest from there. I'm afraid I have only two low Ds available at the moment, and am not sure how many of you guys are into that. And as of this moment only one G.

[Yuri]

While I was looking through this thread to find who already signed up for the tour, I came across an unanswered question.
"Would it be possible to make an instrument that is intermediate between a whistle and a recorder? Or is there a definite line between dodecatonic and heptatonic fipple flutes?"
That's an interesting one to a musical instrument nerd like me. Thing is, the very earliest recorders are not quite as we know them. They date from the 14th century, and are actually very different from each other, but share a number of characteristics. One of them is that the little finger hole only flattens the 6-finger note by a semitone, not a tone. There is a definite feeling that the 6 finger-hole is regarded as the tonic, and the little finger hole simply makes a leading note possible, rather than being the tonic itself.
The longest-known medieval recorder, the Dordrecht one, also has a completely cylindrical bore, perhaps uniquely among recorders. There are three more from before the 16th century that survived in an either playable or at least reconstructible shape, and all of these have a semitone for the first step. So you really can think of them more like whistles, with an afterthought of a semitone lower note added.
On the other hand, they all respond to chromatic cross-fingering in the lower notes, too.
I think, all in all, this is the closest you can get to some sort of a hybrid. Unless you simply bore a thumbhole into any existing whistle, just for an octave hole, so it really needs to be only a pinhole, and otherwise leave the whistle as it is.

[Flavius]

The longest-known medieval recorder, the Dordrecht one, also has a completely cylindrical bore, perhaps uniquely among recorders.

Spanish group "Cinco Siglos" has worked with recorder makers Jean-Luc Bodreau and Klaus Scheele on some speculative cylindrical narrow-bore recorders.

I had occasion to listen to one of them live (the bottom one, a tenor tuned Low D in the manner of a voice flute), and was fortunate enough to have the player kindly answer my numerous questions

The sound was open and full (if such terms make any sense) in a manner that indeed reminisced of a whistle, and yet there was no doubt it was a recorder what was being played. It has been said elsewhere [citation needed] that the head is perhaps what gives an instrument its character, more so than the barrel. And, as the Guru said:

Fipple flutes all exist on a tonal continuum anyway. I could record a selection of whistles and recorders, and play them in such a way that I could almost guarantee that you wouldn't be able to identify which is which.

[snakewriggle]

Thanks, Yuri.

The Oz Whistles FAQ has this to say:

What's the difference between a Whistle and a Recorder?

Typically, the recorder has 7 holes on the front side of the body and a thumb hole on the back. A pennywhistle usually has 6 holes on the front and no thumb hole. Most importantly, the sound of a whistle is different - it is merrier and less "woody". This brighter tone allows the whistle a better spectral position amongst other traditional folk instruments such as the fiddles, mandolins, bouzoukis and uilleann pipes.

My takeaway: whistles (unlike recorders) are optimized to sound good!

[Whistle Free or Die]

I think that the whistle tour is a super idea and I look foward to the day that I am worthy of being part of the tour. I do look foward to hearing everyones comments.
But... for now ...I will go practice Katie Bairdie. again and again.

[Yuri]

The longest-known medieval recorder, the Dordrecht one, also has a completely cylindrical bore, perhaps uniquely among recorders.

Spanish group "Cinco Siglos" has worked with recorder makers Jean-Luc Bodreau and Klaus Scheele on some speculative cylindrical narrow-bore recorders.

When I wrote "unique among recorders", I meant among historical ones. I simply never heard of another one with strictly cylindrical bore. In the 20th c. many maker made cylindrical bore "medieval" recorders, most of them not based on the Dordrecht one. There is only one single reason for making these - they are the easiest to make, of course. In every other way they are at the most not worse than more complex bore ones. The other three surviving medieval recorders all have rather simple, but still stepped bores, by the way. If you are interested, look here for a bit more info on these. http://www.recorderhomepage.net/torture2.html
The page doesn't of course give details of the bores, but does give bibliography, so you can hunt it up, if really determined.

[Yuri]

I think that the whistle tour is a super idea and I look foward to the day that I am worthy of being part of the tour. I do look foward to hearing everyones comments.
But... for now ...I will go practice Katie Bairdie. again and again.

Hi Susan.
I didn't mean I exclude evryone without a PHD in music, you know. I simply wanted to make sure there is enough truly experienced players to make the tour worthwile from the whole budding business point of view. (cos, after all, that's what it is about. I simply need a way of launching a make that I would have trouble with otherwise, living in the "*rsehole of the world"*
So just send your particulars along, and you'll get a go, too.

* (quote from that foremost great thinker of our times, Keith Richards. Him of the Rolling Stones. The occasion was when they toured New Zealand, way back in the 60-es or 70-es, and played in the most southern town in NZ, Invercargill. While I live in Dunedin, not Invercargill, it's only some 200 kms. I'm sure Keith made a lot of friends by that remark.)

[Flavius]

The longest-known medieval recorder, the Dordrecht one, also has a completely cylindrical bore, perhaps uniquely among recorders.

Spanish group "Cinco Siglos" has worked with recorder makers Jean-Luc Bodreau and Klaus Scheele on some speculative cylindrical narrow-bore recorders.

When I wrote "unique among recorders", I meant among historical ones.

Uh, sorry, my bad. I didn't realize the way I wrote it would came across as challenging your statement. Let me rephrase:

The longest-known medieval recorder, the Dordrecht one, also has a completely cylindrical bore, perhaps uniquely among recorders.

[Recorders being notoriously conical], if someone is curious as to what a cylindrical recorder would look and sound like Spanish group "Cinco Siglos" has worked with recorder makers Jean-Luc Bodreau and Klaus Scheele on some speculative cylindrical narrow-bore recorders(...)

That's what I meant. Again, sorry for my previous poor wording.

[Yuri]

There's nothing to be sorry for there. I mean there can't be any offence or anything.
About the cilyndrical bore, though. What it doesn't do is affect the basic tone of the recorder. What it does do is affect the evenness of the individual notes. Cilyndrical bore recorders have a noticeably different quality to the different notes. That is one of the issues addressed by all the tricks of the complex bore. (The other being simply the in-tune precision in the two (three) octaves.)