MK Pro & Overton tonal differences

[Peter Duggan]

This is true, but the alto recorder repertoire is mostly in flat keys. It really is a flute in F, not G (pace Jack Campin).

Think it's maybe both in some ways, with the G analogy working for the shared fingerings and sharper keys, your F flute contention clearly holding true for the 'read your traverso music with French violin clef and changed key signature' convention (where Bach's A minor partita becomes a C minor partita) and neither the B (third of G) nor Bb (fourth of F) scoring on the logical, unforked scale.

The voice flute is a fascinating instrument (I've long wanted to get myself a Prescott voice flute), although the fingering of the tenor recorder (what Stanesby called the "true concert flute", as I recall) has more analogies to the six-hole flute.

Also goes without saying that the voice flute's restoration of original sounding key to traverso repertoire 'borrowed' as above supports your 'flute in F' take on note equivalence, but maybe worth observing that the dual F/G 'character' I'm suggesting (supported by your 'fingering of the tenor recorder [...] has more analogies to the six-hole flute') keeps both low-pitched baroque altos and higher-pitched modern ones right in the hunt for that 'sweet spot'!

[Mikethebook]

Peter, thanks for your thoughts on the V3s. I've read in the Piper's Grip review of the Low F that it has higher back pressure than the Low D. Does it still require much more breath than say the Goldie's Low F?

Killthemessenger, I've just stood up in defense of the Optima on another thread. I see as being an excellent whistle and far from being substandard in any way. But like everyone else on these forums, regardless of the qualities of the Optima, can I not be allowed to choose a whistle that is most likely to be pleasing to me in terms of playability, tones, volume etc? And for me, I believe, my "ideal," my "dream" whistle in terms of tone, balance etc is to be found in the Goldie not in the Optima.

[Peter Duggan]

Peter, thanks for your thoughts on the V3s. I've read in the Piper's Grip review of the Low F that it has higher back pressure than the Low D. Does it still require much more breath than say the Goldie's Low F?

Can't answer that question directly because I don't have a Goldie F but, from currently owning all three V3s (D, F and G) as well as original (Bernard) Overton D and G, I'd say that:

1. The V3 F and G definitely take less air than the D.
2. The V3s all take significantly more air than the equivalent Overtons.

And, to back that up with a quick 'scientific' test, I've just got through three lines of jig (repeated first line + single second line of Queen of the Rushes) in a single breath on both Overtons (nearly made four on the G), two plus on the V3 F and G but didn't consistently get past two on the V3 D!

Killthemessenger, I've just stood up in defense of the Optima on another thread. I see as being an excellent whistle and far from being substandard in any way. But like everyone else on these forums, regardless of the qualities of the Optima, can I not be allowed to choose a whistle that is most likely to be pleasing to me in terms of playability, tones, volume etc? And for me, I believe, my "ideal," my "dream" whistle in terms of tone, balance etc is to be found in the Goldie not in the Optima.

Of course you can, but please just be aware that (as I've already suggested there) you might be 'chasing rainbows'!

[Mikethebook]

Thanks Peter. Good to know that. Very helpful . . . but in the interests of being scientific, how much back pressure do your Overton's have? A standard medium amount or a higher level?

[Peter Duggan]

Impossible to quantify (especially when I'm not sure whether you're joking or not) when I've never had a single whistle that actually directs air back at my mouth (!) but, FWIW...

While I'd say the Overtons and V3s are equally controllable, the results of my 'tests' (repeated several times in the interests of whatever accuracy that brings) suggest that the V3s may require up to 50% more air.

[Mikethebook]

Wasn't joking. That is very helpful. Thanks.

[Byll]

I have never liked the term 'back pressure.' Somewhere on this site is either an entire thread, and/or many posts concerning the subject of Peter's humorous statement. I prefer the term 'resistance.' Others certainly have their own understandings.

And... Under the heading of 'for what it is worth:' It can be very self defeating, asking of a Goldie/Overton owner, the resistance characteristics of his instrument. Colin will build into your personal instrument, any level of resistance you so desire...

Best.
Byll

[Mikethebook]

You misundertsood me, Byll. That is EXACTLY why I asked about the backpressure . . . okay resistance, of his particular Overtons!

[Byll]

I apologize, Mike. This thread has gone in a lot of different directions. Attempting to follow the threads within the thread is difficult. However, it still escapes me why one would wish to know the particular blowing characteristics (Colin's terminology) and air requirements of a particular Goldie Overton, unless one were wishing to purchase that particular instrument. I am obviously missing something contained in one of the posts in this thread. Waste no more time on me, Mike.

If you are interested in a Goldie, I respectfully suggest you speak with Colin or Brigitte. Both are capable of explaining the entire issue, quite well...

Best.
Byll

[hans]

1. The V3 F and G definitely take less air than the D.
2. The V3s all take significantly more air than the equivalent Overtons.

Re 1: not surprising because of the difference in tube diameter and windway/window dimensions?
Re 2: does that correspond with a proportionally larger cross-section area of their respective windways? Is there a correspondence to volume?

Flow resistance and how much air flows per time (how much breath does it take) would have a direct correlation to windway cross-section and to some degree to windway length.

[Peter Duggan]

why I asked about the backpressure . . . okay resistance, of his particular Overtons!

Which are Bernard Overtons, remember. On which note the only useful response I can give you is to suggest that any Overton-style whistle (loose umbrella term to cover Overtons, Goldies, Kerry Pros and Optimas!) is likely to take significantly less air than a Chieftain V3.

Re 1: not surprising because of the difference in tube diameter and windway/window dimensions?

You'd think so, Hans, but all three V3s also take significantly more air than either of those Overtons, let alone the (smaller voiced) Overton A I've kept out of the discussion so far as being of higher pitch and smaller bore.

Re 2: does that correspond with a proportionally larger cross-section area of their respective windways?

From a quick visual inspection (not measured), probably yes.

Is there a correspondence to volume?

As far as I can tell, no.

[pancelticpiper]

I use an MK Low D for my usual whistle, and I have owned a number of Overtons (Bernard made) in Low D, Low Eb, and Low E over the years. Currently I have a Bernard Overton in Low E.

The tone of both my MK Low D and the Bernard Overton Low Ds I've owned are more complex than most Low Ds. There's a lot of "dirt" or character or however one might describe it. The opposite perhaps is the very clean pure tone of the Burke Low D which I played for a few years.

The three different MK Low Ds I've owned all were the most air-efficient Low Ds I've had. By that I mean that less air passes through, meaning that longer phrases can be played. Despite this the MKs are the loudest Low Ds I've owned.

[pancelticpiper]

Now I realise that Overtons vary tremendously, but recently I've been playing my Bernard Overton Low E and my MK Low D quite a bit, and the difference in tone is rather large. The MK's tone is more complex, "dirtier", edgier that the Overton's, and at the same time seems to have more of a "core", more centered or focused. When I switch from the MK to the Overton, the Overton's sound seems cleaner or sweeter, and a bit foggy, spongey, and hollow, with less of a "core". Boy it's hard to put these things into words! But I tried anyhow.

[AvienMael]

Now I realise that Overtons vary tremendously, but recently I've been playing my Bernard Overton Low E and my MK Low D quite a bit, and the difference in tone is rather large. The MK's tone is more complex, "dirtier", edgier that the Overton's, and at the same time seems to have more of a "core", more centered or focused. When I switch from the MK to the Overton, the Overton's sound seems cleaner or sweeter, and a bit foggy, spongey, and hollow, with less of a "core". Boy it's hard to put these things into words! But I tried anyhow.

How about: " The MK has a gritty nasal quality like a chain-smoking Jewish transvestite from New York City, whereas the Overton has more of that soothing, gravely southern Baptist minister kinda feel to it."

No? Ok, just tryin' to help...

[pancelticpiper]

" The MK has a gritty nasal quality like a chain-smoking Jewish transvestite from New York City, whereas the Overton has more of that soothing, gravely southern Baptist minister kinda feel to it."

That maybe should be a sticky