Tell us something.: Long ago, I was told that I faked iTrad whistle work very well. I took that comment to heart. 20 years of private lessons - and many, many hours of rehearsal later - I certainly hope I have improved...
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Peter Duggan wrote:Afraid you've lost me there, Denny (as in not sure which of my posts you're referring to and whether that puts me on the 'good' or the 'bad' side)?
'Twas the other Peter about which the reference was made, AFAIK.
I've proven who I am so many times, the magnetic strips worn thin.
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Ah... not obvious to those who don't know because there's no-one else on this thread clearly identifiable as 'Peter' from what's here. So I'm guessing Mr.Gumby?
Peter Duggan wrote:Ah... not obvious to those who don't know because there's no-one else on this thread clearly identifiable as 'Peter' from what's here.
Right! Now we're all on the same page, not that I'm referring to a page as in having to do with "reading".
I've proven who I am so many times, the magnetic strips worn thin.
Possibly the early years of C&F have left me slightly sensitive to a climate where it's always OK to be 'bemused' by one side of the argument, possibly to many references to the 'trad police', the ITM brigade and, how do they call it again 'the pure drop' have been thrown about casually over the years.
Not looking for an argument here either but do realise it is just as easy to express bemusement at the other side of the argument, the music readers who record their version of Irish tunes that only provide an outline without any depth, nuance or other elements that would from my point of view make traditional music worthwhile. It's all a matter of perspective. Expressing that sort of 'bemusement' is just not very productive.
Tell us something.: I'm a fiddler and, latterly, a fluter. I love the flute. I wish I'd always played it. I love the whistle as well. I'm blessed in having really lovely instruments for all of my musical interests.
Location: Unimportant island off the great mainland of Europe
I've had an argument with Peter (yes, the one that Denny meant) hereabouts in the past which I admit did bemuse me. I'm wondering if either:
a) I can express myself better now and not incur the Gumby wrath; or
b) I'll understand a bit better where the differences in points of view are, 'cos I completely failed to last time around. Here goes ...
I use sheet music every single day of my life. I have scraps of tunes around the place, loads of books of tunes, music, whatever, files with tunes in that I flick through from time to time, often with a degree of nostalgia, e-mails back and forth to pals swapping dots for things etc etc etc. I wouldn't be without it. It's an incredibly useful tool.
And yet ... I don't think there can be many, if any trad tunes that I play, in my own assessment, 'properly', I.E. with the feeling appropriate to that tune, that I haven't heard many times in a live situation. There are tunes that I originally learnt from the dots - not a high proportion of the tunes that I play, but still, there are some. But even there, they have been radically altered and honed by active listening to people playing them, either in session or in smaller groups (as in one to one - I'm not including CDs, 'cos I don't listen to them much, but each to his/her own).
So, on the basis of my own experience, I reckon that, even when you know and understand the idiom really thoroughly, you're still better off learning a new tune by ear. That way, you'll hear what's special about that particular tune, which is something which I think can't readily be conveyed by the dots. It other words, it just saves time to learn the things by ear, IMO. These days, I'd rather someone just show me.
this one always seems to be a hardy perennial topic, just surprising how hot under the collar people get about it. Can't see much detriment in being able to read written music or being able to jot down the shape of a tune or being able to micro-transcribe the details of a performance (which Mr Gumby does very neatly). Not sure it makes much difference if that's using dots or ABCs. A lot of trad musicians don't read much, many not at all, some do, and a few very well. It's just handy sometimes.
I'm no expert and probably won't express it very well but it often seems like arguments on this list come from confusing ITM with just a style of individual performance, a set of techniques, a repertoire of tunes, or an end product. Isn't the basis of any 'tradition' (classical, jazz, ITM) more about a process, a way of learning and a way of being in the company of other people? Trying to learn one style of music using the traditional methods of another might help with bits of technique, understanding or performance but by definition it's not the 'tradition'. Not sure that matters much either as long as you're not judging one tradition by the norms of another - things like learning to hold the instrument 'correctly', learning to read and write, just and equal tuning, scale modes, key signatures and bar lines can sometimes be helpful but they don't carry much status... there are other things that do, and which need to be learned in other ways.
Last edited by MarkP on Sat Dec 17, 2011 2:25 am, edited 1 time in total.
AbrasiveScotsman wrote:For example, I don't believe you should ever try to play a piece of music you have never heard.
Think that's restricting yourself unnecessarily when there are many great tunes (particularly from older and/or more obscure sources) that don't get played too often and there's a world of difference between learning 'trad' from staff notation when you're familiar with the style and taking it literally (= robotically!) when you're not...
I do this all the time. It fun to experiment. I'm curious, why do you recommend not trying this? It's not like a person is walking a highwire without a net?
Rose tint my world. Keep me safe from my trouble and pain. 白飞梦
mutepointe wrote:It's not like a person is walking a highwire without a net?
Having one's pants down around one's ankles is the more apt analogy for me. Everyone's better off if people just don't know about it, so staying home is good.
That said, I've learned an obscure tune or two straight off of the dots. Haven't heard 'em anywhere else, so they're totally my versions and everything. But that's ITM and that's what I do, so after years of active listening and enough feedback to let you know you're not completely in the woods, a person should be able to do that. It's not my usual or favorite way to go, though; most tunes don't grab me on paper until I've heard them first. OTOH, if I were able to read music with ease, things might be different.
"If you take music out of this world, you will have nothing but a ball of fire." - Balochi musician
Tell us something.: I'm a fiddler and, latterly, a fluter. I love the flute. I wish I'd always played it. I love the whistle as well. I'm blessed in having really lovely instruments for all of my musical interests.
Location: Unimportant island off the great mainland of Europe
or would it be worse 
