Which versions do I learn

[hans]

okay, here is an abc transcription of McMahon's Reel (The Banshee), which has only fleeting use of F#s in three triplet runs. This is supposed to be a transcription of the version in Ceol Rinnce na hEirreann vol 2 (can't verify this). This was very hard to find, most versions you find on the web use more F#s, with significant differences to this:

Code: Select all

T:McMahon's Reel (The Banshee)
B:CRE2.273 (Ríl Mhic Mhathúna)
M:C
R:reel
K:G
G3D EDEE|DEGB d2Bd|(3efg dB A2GA|BAGE EDD2|
G3D EDB,D|(3EDE GB d2Bd|(3efg dB A2GA|BAGE EDD2:|
eaag egge|dBBA B3d|eBB2 gBB2|eBBA B3d|
eaag egge|dBBA B3d|(3efg dB A2GA|BAGE EDD2:|

[StevieJ]

okay, here is an abc transcription of McMahon's Reel (The Banshee), which has only fleeting use of F#s in three triplet runs. This is supposed to be a transcription of the version in Ceol Rinnce na hEirreann vol 2 (can't verify this). This was very hard to find, most versions you find on the web use more F#s, with significant differences to this:

Code: Select all

T:McMahon's Reel (The Banshee)
B:CRE2.273 (Ríl Mhic Mhathúna)
M:C
R:reel
K:G
G3D EDEE|DEGB d2Bd|(3efg dB A2GA|BAGE EDD2|
G3D EDB,D|(3EDE GB d2Bd|(3efg dB A2GA|BAGE EDD2:|
eaag egge|dBBA B3d|eBB2 gBB2|eBBA B3d|
eaag egge|dBBA B3d|(3efg dB A2GA|BAGE EDD2:|

And your point is?

I suppose you've made it 3 times already: the versions you have found with F#s prove that I was incorrect to say the tune was essentially pentatonic. Well let's just say that in my mind at least the tune is essentially pentatonic. Happy now?

[hans]

And your point is?

I suppose you've made it 3 times already: the versions you have found with F#s prove that I was incorrect to say the tune was essentially pentatonic. Well let's just say that in my mind at least the tune is essentially pentatonic. Happy now?

No, not at all! I agree with you, it being essentially pentatonic, in that version I dug up. And if that corresponds to the oldest printed version so much the better. Seeing the older version I bow my hat and admit that you were right all along. It also shows me how difficult and nearly impossible it is to find an authentic notation on the web.

My point? I just wanted to see.

[Mr.Gumby]

From what I can gather The Banshee is a fairly modern tune, written by flute player James McMahon, originally from Rosslea, Co. Fermanagh (born circa 1900) (when did he die, or is he still alive?), and also known as McMahon's Reel [ http://tunearch.org/wiki/Annotation:McMahon%27s_Reel ].
And I do not see it written as pentatonic, only as hexatonic (gapped scale without C or C#).
For instance http://tunearch.org/wiki/McMahon%27s_Reel
or http://www.novasession.org/Tunes/bwreels-9.pdf
As a more modern composition, and published as notation in various books, there should not be much argument about a possible pentatonic origin, even though the A part especially is tempting to be played purely pentatonically without F#s.

Hans, the above is what I replied to, the version supplied (from John Loughran, of Co Fermanagh) possibly closest to the source of any version I could come up with at the drop of a hat. And I think it makes the argument convincingly. I don't think there's a lot more to say about it.

[hans]

Hans, the above is what I replied to, the version supplied (from John Loughran, of Co Fermanagh) possibly closest to the source of any version I could come up with at the drop of a hat. And I think it makes the argument convincingly. I don't think there's a lot more to say about it.

Thanks, yours and Stevie's input is very much appreciated, as always! Especially if one has no direct connection to the sources and hopes to find inspiration through web searches, which often can get misleading and frustrating.

[Mr.Gumby]

In all fairness, I just had a look, 'Hidden Fermanagh' does give the Banshee with the turn going eaag efge dBBa B they do not a provide a source for the tune though, just the name of the composer and the fact the Bothy Band recorded it. I must say I find the eaag egge dBBa B a more natural fit but to each their own aesthetic choices. And it is the sort of transition you see happening a lot, where the old players would go straight for the note and the younger crowd adding notes. I suppose the old jigs ending for example BGG G turning into BGF G is something similar: some people vehemently dislike that and feel it spoils the old tunes when you end them that way.

[Steve Bliven]

...but to each their own aesthetic choices.

But isn't that a significant part of the musical tradition? Finding the Ur version only tells you how that person played it (or composed it). Over the years, the versions grow and expand as we've seen. I guess that sometimes a version will push "outside the tradition" but, to go back to the OP's question, "Which one is the 'real' one?"

And to continue and expand on the thread drift... Any thoughts on why there might be a significant number of pentatonic tunes in ITM (and I'm basing that on comments here)? Is there some instrument limitation that would lead to this situation?

Thanks and best wishes.

Steve

[StevieJ]

I got quite a bee in my bonnet about this question of added notes filling in the gaps at some point towards the end of the last century. I have relaxed a lot about it (phew) but I still think it is worth keeping a discerning eye open for.

I once listened to Sean Casey, son of Bobby, playing Christmas Eve on fiddle. He really made a new tune out of it, scattering Cs and F#s liberally all over the place. A new, inventive perhaps, but ultimately character-less tune, I felt - and still feel.

A couple of other examples to ponder:

There's a tune variously called McGettrick's or McGorman's and I don't know what else, another essentially pentatonic tune (two sharps) that starts (the way I like it)

A3B defa | a2fd edBd ...
The dominant tendency nowadays seems to be to play
A3B defg | a2fd edBd
The difference in feeling that little g generates is just enormous. And to my ear, horrible!

Another pentatonic tune, purely pentatonic this one: Humours of Toomagh aka The Cloon. I've actually heard people discussing it as being in D minor! which gives them permission to stick a few f nats into the tune, with similarly nauseating results.

Last point, if you deliberately set out to respect what you think is the essential pentatonic (or hexatonic) nature of a tune, to the point of avoiding phrases or variations that just about everybody plays, you can often come up with some nice alternatives.

Second part of Out on the Ocean, just about everybody plays as a variation
ege edB|ege edB|ded def|gfe dBA|

try this instead
ege edB|ege edB|ded dba|ged edB|

Harmless fun.

Edited to fix octave - thank you Ben

[benhall.1]

A3B defa | A2fd edBd ...

High a2?

[Steve Bliven]

...Another pentatonic tune, purely pentatonic this one: Humours of Toomagh aka The Cloon. I've actually heard people discussing it as being in D minor! which gives them permission to stick a few f nats into the tune, with similarly nauseating results. ...

I'm not familiar with the tune. Looking at the various versions on the net, I'm finding it in D, C, G, "sorta Amin" and others. What key would you use to describe the tune? And what would the first few notes be?

Thanks and best wishes.

Steve

[StevieJ]

A3B defa | A2fd edBd ...

High a2?

Indeed, thanks and apologies.

Steve B:

K:(no sharps or flats - and no Bs or Fs either)
dcAE G3A|GEcE G3e|dcAE G3A|GEcE EDD2

For the purposes of ABC notation I suppose you'd have to put C or Am in the key signature but both would be misleading. These are the same notes that I heard described as being in Dm BTW!

Jackie Daly plays a version a tone higher which he says comes from an old Castle Ceili Band set.

[Steve Bliven]

Steve B:

K:(no sharps or flats - and no Bs or Fs either)
dcAE G3A|GEcE G3e|dcAE G3A|GEcE EDD2

For the purposes of ABC notation I suppose you'd have to put C or Am in the key signature but both would be misleading. These are the same notes that I heard described as being in Dm BTW!

Well, given the no Bs or Fs situation, C/Am, G/Em or F/Dm would work. But for the chordally challenged, any accompanists or music theory folks have a suggestion as to what key/mode would be appropriate. I'm having a hard time sorting out where these pentatonic fit into keys/modes.

Thanks and best wishes.

Steve

[Steve Bliven]

There's a tune variously called McGettrick's or McGorman's and I don't know what else, another essentially pentatonic tune (two sharps) that starts (the way I like it)

A3B defa | a2fd edBd ...
The dominant tendency nowadays seems to be to play
A3B defg | a2fd edBd
The difference in feeling that little g generates is just enormous. And to my ear, horrible!

Is it this one? And what changes do you make—other than the horrid g in the first measure of the last line?
X: 1
T: Throw Away The Keys
R: reel
M: 4/4
L: 1/8
K: Dmaj
~A3B defa|~a2fd efdB|~A2AB defe|dBAF EFD2:|
~a3f defa|~a2fd efd2|~a3f defe|dBAF EFD2|
~a3f defg|adfd efdB|~A2AB defe|dBAF EFD2||

Thanks and best wishes.

Steve

[benhall.1]

K:(no sharps or flats - and no Bs or Fs either) dcAE G3A|GEcE G3e|dcAE G3A|GEcE EDD2

A small point, out of interest: I've heard versions with a sharp c at the beginning of the first and third bar, but natural cs elsewhere. I rather like it. Just an aside, I'm basically with you on this sort of thing, StevieJ.

[StevieJ]

That's the one, Steve B - looks about right except for, you know, that note.

K:(no sharps or flats - and no Bs or Fs either) dcAE G3A|GEcE G3e|dcAE G3A|GEcE EDD2

A small point, out of interest: I've heard versions with a sharp c at the beginning of the first and third bar, but natural cs elsewhere. I rather like it.

I know what you mean... no point in getting too purist about this stuff. I mean while running through the tune on whistle (and it works really well on whistle in this, um, key) I realised that I hear a version in my head that does slip in a high F-natural immediately before the last bar of the second part, and try as I might to dislike it on musicological grounds, I don't! Very like slipping in a passing high g at the end of the E setting of Toss the Feathers, a tune that otherwise has no Gs.

In fact there is a class of gapped-scale tunes that spring a big surprise on us, usually at the end, with a very emphatic statement of one of the missing notes: Sporting Nell, with a whacking great Fnat (in a common D setting) or Gnat (E setting), of First Month of Summer (a G) at the beginning of this version.

It's a hazardous undertaking trying to shoehorn these tunes into an existing musical system... be it Western music, or church modes, or Greek modes, or anything else as far as I know. The Cloon is a very good example of what Ó Cannain in his book called "a tune with complex tonality". If you added up the note values using his system I guess the "tonal centres" that emerged would be G (all those long notes and the tune's highest note) and D (endings). A challenge for accompanists I think - lots of open chord voicings called for!

Edit: PS1 I must track down Henebry's writings, which I've never seen.
PS2 Sorry for the catastrophic thread drift, spiderjames...