This forum needs to continue. I agree with Michael Eskin that we may want some culling of posts in the interests of more information. I don't think I would be back playing after 20+ years without the information about makers, sites, reeds. I bought my 1/2 set through a posting that I responded to in this forum.
Besides-I need something to read at lunch that isn't depressing.
I am a recent convert from 18 years of Highland Piping, and there just is not as much info available to the general public for the Uilleann Pipes. I have grown pipe (if you could say I'm grown up) listening to both instruments (42 years now) yet have now so little about the UP. Between this forum and my very fortunate location providing me access to the So. Cal. UP Club, I have learned a great deal in a relatively short time.
Thanks you Gabriel for alerting me to this site.
This is a very mysterious instrument and this site has really unlock a lot of mystery for me.
And if we can save just one more GH bagpipe player, isn't it worth it.
2 cents: When you live in the Uilleann triangle like I do. Where the closest piper is an hour away, and the next piper after that is 2 hours away. It is hard to get a lot of information without forums like these.
I say there is probably only a few bad apples in this tree, as I have found that the majority of people on this forum are very helpfull and make my uilleann triangle seem a little smaller.
3 cents: It used to be, 1 unhappy customer tells 11 other potential customers, now with the internet I would hate to take a guess on how that theory works out. Feedback to other customers is necessary, but there is a fine line between feedback and using the mass media coverage of the internet to deliberatly cause damage or obtain something.
Last edited by Northern Whistler on Sat May 01, 2004 9:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
dale, i think alot of us know who you are talking about and what the problem is.
i would suggest that you write privately to the complaining pipe maker and suggest that he contact the person who is "smearing him".
he should say:
"i strive in general to do a good job but have not with you. what can i do to make it right? a new chanter? a full refund"
this is in concert (no pun) with the jewish idea that when you have hurt someone you do all you can to make it right.
if this customer does not take the bate, the pipe maker in question should tell his story on this forum so that all know he did his best to make it right.
but my guess? the wronged customer will accept the apology and the remedy, and this will end.
I've said far far far far far far more critical things about pipe makers on the internet for the last ten years and yawned over ranting, mouth-foaming threats of libel and slander suits from pipers and pipe makers who'd just love to file one. Unfortunately, if it ever actually happened, it would set a world-wide precedent--and as far as suing the moderator or host of the forum, well, that's even less likely.
The problems of proving and pursuing a case if libel here, even if the snivellers have one, are so difficult when it concerns a forum like this, that they are almost insurmountable. And you're right, pipe makers, Scottish and otherwise, are wont to throw the lawyer-talk around because to the ignorant it sounds very intimidating.
I wouldn't lose any sleep over it.
Royce
Last edited by Royce on Sun May 02, 2004 8:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Royce wrote:
I wouldn't lose any sleep over it.
Royce
Royce for moderator?...........
I will assist of course!!...........
Slan go foill
Liam
Now this, I might lose sleep over.
What's the old saying about putting the gasoline in charge of the fire?
p.s. Liam, as I am Gaelic challenged, what does foill mean?
Royce wrote:I've said far far far far far far more critical things about pipe makers on the internet for the last ten years and yawned over ranting, mouth-foaming threats of libel and slander suits from pipers and pipe makers who'd just love to file one.
I wouldn't lose any sleep over it.
Royce
Haven't lost a wink. I think you've missed my point. I'm not concerned about pipemakers suing me. I'm concerned about fair play on a forum which I publish. If you get a chance, read my posts in this thread.
meir wrote:dale, i think alot of us know who you are talking about and what the problem is.
Respectfully, I don't think so. This isn't about one person or one problem.
i would suggest that you write privately to the complaining pipe maker and suggest that he contact the person who is "smearing him".
I get complaints about whistle makers. 95% of them come to me privately and not through the whistle forum. Usually all I do is forward the email, with permission, to the whistle maker. I don't comment and don't ask anything of the whistle maker. That usually takes care of the problem and I typically get another email from the complainer saying the problem has been resolved to their satisfaction. This is because, in all candor, I think whistle makers know that it doesn't pay to have a bad rep on Chiff & Fipple. But C&F doesn't have that kind of pull in the world of piping (and C&F doesn't desire it!)
if this customer does not take the bate, the pipe maker in question should tell his story on this forum so that all know he did his best to make it right.
I don't agree, Meir. This is not a kangaroo court. Let's say I'm a plumber. Let's say their is a forum some place called Alabama Plumbers: Who's Good and Who's Bad? Someone posts a complaint about me there. a) It's not an appropriate forum. b) Why should I be required to join that forum and defend myself in front of a bunch of observers?
The reason we have appropriate forums for settling disputes (private exchanges and then courts and mediators) is because there are rules of fairness that govern those processes. We could try to establish rules here, but I have no way of sanctioning violators nor do I have the time or, frankly, the interest. Even with a highly active and informed moderator, there is no way to make it a fair forum for resolving disputes.
There's just a world of difference between someone saying that they don't particular care for a $20 whistle, and someone taking up a serious dispute about a multi-thousand dollar deal here. There's also a world of difference between someone criticizing and offering their considered opinions about a product vs. ranting on about the person or business that produces it.
marcpipes wrote:[quote="Uilliam
p.s. Liam, as I am Gaelic challenged, what does foill mean?
Slan Go Foill simply means cheerio for now!
Anois ar theacht an tsamhraidh(Summer is approaching!!)
So lets have a General Truce maybe an Amnesty even and welcome the season and stick to piping issues in an calm and adult way.(that will be a bit of a challenge per moi but I'm up for it!! )
Slan Go Foill y'all
Liam
What you seem to be asking, Dale, (for the third time since I've been coming here) is "Why should I put up with all this crap? All the other kids play well with others."
I think we, the users of this site, should remember that Dale HOLDS NO DEBT TO US, that we hold debt to him for allowing us to use this site, and we SHOULD BE LISTENING VERY VERY CAREFULLY when the moderator says things like this.
This site has been a massive help to me, a beginner, and the more I learn and think about what I've learned, the more I'm interested in rereading posts that I poorly understood the first time through and revisiting the topic.
I don't think more rules will help this situation, that's how you end up with the "that which is not required is forbidden" thing, which always sucks.
I don't post here too terribly often, but I do lurk. I had only ever heard the pipes live once prior to coming online and finding this forum. Through this forum I have;
1 ) Found out that there are pipemakers in my country,
2 ) been able to establish contact with them,
3 ) been informed about a tionol at which I was able to meet my maker (no no... not that one),
4 ) had numerous problems -tuning/reed problems, fingering misunderstandings, pipe setup, etc - clarified and sometimes completely solved,
5 ) spoken with other isolated pipers and had "that hurt/bothered/frustrated me too until I learned how to do this" kind of advice,
6 ) heard songs (on the clips site) that I would never have heard and been able to read what the players have to say about them,
7 ) asked for, and privately received, excellent advice on purchasing pipes vis a vis cost, waiting lists, materials (wood choices, bellows construction, etc), etc.,
8 ) learned how to play techniques that I frankly might not have even recognized as technique as such on recordings and been directed to very specific recordings by various players where those techniques are utilized,
This is not an exhaustive list of all the reasons I've kept coming back here.
However, the amount of vicious, vipurative and largely opinion-based attacks I've seen here have frankly disgusted me and I've backed off a good deal because of that. My job gives me the tendency to listen carefully for a long time before making judgments but there has been enough contempt and brutishness in some of the posts that frankly I'm wearied by it. I don't want to come here and have to wade through fifteen posts that are vicious slags passed off as 'sarcasm' or open attacks on persons/ideologies/opinions when those attacks are excused with 'well that's just so and so's personality'. That's crap and it doesn't help anyone, including the attacker.
There is a clear but ill-defined difference between forthrightness and soap-box aggrandizement and I think that that line gets happily blurred time and time again, and rarely to the benefit of anyone or anything being discussed.
I also wanted to mention that your analogy of Widget-Making doesn't quite match up. (Sorry, Dude.) Widgets aren't susceptible to weather conditions, ambient humidity or the strength/weakness/force applied by the user. It is possible to ruin a reed (not likely, but possible) just by wildly overblowing it once. Newbies who've just heard the pipes, picked up a set -say- on ebay and started wailing away will find themselves puzzled, confused, and eventually angered when someone on this site says 'oh, your pipes are made by so and so and I have it on good authority that that maker's an evil, money-grubbing fascist who abuses small kittens, no wonder your practice set sucks, burn it publicly and then buy THIS set'.
Helps sell one kind of widgets, I suppose, but the maker never gets to hear about the problem and the newbie ends up either confused or parroting spurious opinions under the erroneous idea that they are well-researched truths, passing the same off as if it were so, which lends credence to the opinion.... etc etc.
My suggestion: no more public approbation of makers, end of story. If someone wants to get info about a maker, they can ask for PMs. UPs are too individual for general statements; "So and so made a crap set, I know I owned it and therefore all of their sets are crap" or "So and so made a crap set twenty years ago and therefore all of their sets are crap" or "All Uilleann pipes should be made to play with the tone my ear finds pleasing" or "If you purchase from so and so you'll regret it for the rest of your life". UPs are still a folk instrument, and therefore a builder has perfect freedom to create what they want and if we, the buyers, like that too, then we'll buy from them. If there was a way to create a comparative recording of every pipemaker's pipes, that would cease a lot of the more contentious discussions on this site, but it's wildly impractical and really not the kind of solution the problem Dale's presenting to us needs.
After all that, I will say that I have gotten much more good out of this forum than I have gotten bad. And you know, the louder the mouth, the more I'm likely to doubt it. If I go into a pub and there's a bunch of young folk hotly debating something or other and a bunch of old geezers quietly inserting conversation-stopping points; I'm going to listen when the old ones talk. The young guys usually have good points, but the old guys (pissed as newts, but well practiced at it) are usually the ones who have the perspective needed. We've got to get the loudest of the mouths to back off or learn some lessons so we can hear some of the stuff we need to hear so we can all become better at playing the music, which, is, if I'm not mistaken, the reason we come to forums like this.
So Dale, my answer to your question (as I read it) is this; The Benefits for the Many Outweigh the Whinging of the Few.
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