Meg/Sweetone or Generation?

[straycat82]

My main issue with the Gens is the buzzing on the bell note. I know that it is not a breath control issue for me because I've spent a lot of time playing with it to try and control that and I am also no beginner. That isn't to say that EVERY Generation out of the jar will do that but It's been pretty consistent for me. This seemed to be even worse with the nickel plated models. Generations do definintely take a significant amount of breath control (control, not power) when compared to most other makers. This could be a good thing for a beginner to learn with because breath control is one of the most important parts of playing a wind instrument such as the whistle. I still don't know if that would outweigh the sound of the typical Generation though (for me anyways).
I play my Generation Bb a lot and I was able to tweak it so that it would sound good and I do like it a lot now. I also like the F model I have. I did some filing of the toneholes and packed the empty space at the front of the fipple on both. It still sounds a hair too chiffy for my taste in the upper register but I still enjoy it.
As for the Key of D, I think this is their worst model. That is unfortunate since it's the most common in ITM. That's why I would generally discourage a newbie from starting out on a Gen D. Still though, and many people have said it, the best thing to do is to buy several models and decide for yourself (hence the term "cheapies"). Don't let a bunch of strongly opinionated folks discourage you or scare you away. Listen to the personal experiences and hear what people are saying but don't let subjective terms like "not an instrument", "merely a toy", " a piece of crap", etc. scare you off. What's the point of having an opinion if it's not a strong one right? At the same time though, these "opinions" (mine included) can be overstated and emphasized personal opinions... also, keep in mind that different people are looking for different characteristics in whistles and their opinions of certain whistles will reflect that.

[Key_of_D]

Well, I agree with trying them out before you buy.. But, at that same token, there isn't a lot of traditional music stores here in Phoenix, Arizona... All my whistles were bought online. With the exception of two Feadogs I bought. One at a Highland Games, and another at a Irish Festival. But either places, didn't have a single Generation to be bought. They were all Waltons, or Feadogs. And at those places, the vendors wouldn't let you try them untill you bought them anyway. Go figure...

So, for me, trying a bunch of Generations is impossible, at least for the time being, minus buying a bunch online, but then that would defeat the purpose of trying before you buy...

[crookedtune]

After all the banter, I think Straycat82 summed it up as well as anyone. The Generation has a storied past and is still favored by many top players. They can be inconsistent, but many love them just the same. And they can be great whistles. They're cheap enough that everyone who plays whistle should buy a couple and decide for themselves.

For that matter, we should ALL own a few cheapies. What do they cost, about the same as a large latte at Starbuck's? A mug or pint at your local watering hole? The gas it takes to get to your session? C'mon folks, we're not talking about having to drop $620 for an O'Somebody on eBay, right?

[fearfaoin]

I'd love to hear a recording of what you're talking about FF.

Alright, I have recorded Swinging on a Gate
on the Generation I just bought:

http://www.savefile.com/files/6262804

and on my Jerry Freeman-tweaked SweeTone:

http://www.savefile.com/files/4356462

(Note: both these links will take you to a savefile.com page,
where you'll have to click on the "Download" button toward
the bottom, which will take you to another page where you'll
have to click the "[ Download the file now ]" link. Sorry.

[Jason Paul]

Thanks for taking the time to record and upload those.

I sort of see what you're talking about. However, what I'm hearing just sounds like a characteristic of the whistle's tone. It seems that what you're calling awful and buzzy might be what someone else calls reedy, and likes.

Could it be that people who don't like the sound of Generations just don't like a reedy sound? Could it be that my definition of reedy is inaccurate?

I do have an idea of a different kind of buzzy sound though. Sometimes if blow my Oak - no wait, let me rephrase that - put too much air into my Oak in the second register, I get a buzzy sound - possibly a harmonic gone awry.

Is this the buzzing that you guys are talking about? I'm not hearing that in the recording, but of course, it would sound different in person.

Thanks again - and I'm not trying to be difficult. I'm just trying to get a little more educated about what whistles should and shouldn't sound like, rather than just accepting them blindly.

Jason

[fearfaoin]

Well, there's Chiff, which is good, and there's buzz, which is bad.
My Freeman-tweaked SweeTone has more chiff than off-the-shelf
SweeTones, but it is also takes a little more breath control than
the factory models.

I found that the Generation is a good deal easier to control after
it is warm (or maybe after I was warmed up...) (duh). I also
noticed that I try give it a lot of air in the upper octave to keep it
from going flat, and that starts to send it into the third octave, so
that it oscilates between the 2nd and 3rd octave. I think this is
where the "buzzing" is coming from. It is most pronounced on the G.
The 1st octave G can also be tough to keep steady sometimes...

I like the chiff though, it can tend towards a "hiss" above the 2nd
octave F#, but I think I can learn to control it. I'm definately
going to give it a lot more time. I think Peter's convinced me.

[straycat82]

Did you get the buzz on the low register bell note? I've encountered this on most Generations. (I was going to listen to your recording but the wife's already asleep and I don't want to disturb )

[Jerry Freeman]

Off the shelf D Generations especially tend to buzz on the bottom two notes, on the second register D (not so much if you vent the top tonehole) and on the second register G. The upper register D and G tend to have an off character sort of "ring" to them and play a little louder than the adjacent notes, and there tends to be quite a bit of nonmusical air noise in the upper register.

I don't doubt that some of this can be mitigated by expert playing, as I've heard some truly lovely clips from Peter, played on off the shelf Generations that present all these characteristics to a beginning whistler.

Even with all the quirks, there is a certain special character to the sound of a Generation whistle that doesn't seem to be attainable with most other whistles, which I think is the reason Generations are so prized and so loyally defended by those who "get it" about what's special with them.

I think there's a reason why children in Ireland can get started with off the shelf Generations and do fine, but beginning whistlers in the U.S. and elsewhere are often put off by them, and it isn't because the issues with off the shelf Generations are imaginary.

The fact of being surrounded by the music, such that seeing/hearing such whistles played by people they know is a natural part of their experience, having steady access to excellent, in person instruction from an early age, perhaps having fewer distractions, a less helter skelter pace of life, less of a consumerist, "throwaway" culture, and perhaps also a certain character of national temperament, maybe with a greater ability to accept a certain amount of adversity in pursuing a goal (Lord knows this country owes a tremendous debt to the legendary perserverance of Irish immigrants who have dug our canals, mined our coal, worked our shipyards and docks, etc.) may be reasons why Irish children get the hang of off the shelf Generations but American adults often put them aside and go looking for a different whistle.

I have noticed some of the issues with off the shelf Generations in clips I've heard of some of the greatest whistlers ever recorded. The playing is masterful, but I could still hear some of the buzzes, nonmusical air noise, etc. (I would distinguish these sounds from the basic, desirable chiff, which is heard mainly as a sort of chirp at the beginning of certain notes.)

Best wishes,
Jerry

[FJohnSharp]

Off the shelf D Generations especially tend to buzz on the bottom two notes, on the second register D (not so much if you vent the top tonehole) and on the second register G. The upper register D and G tend to have an off character sort of "ring" to them and play a little louder than the adjacent notes, and there tends to be quite a bit of nonmusical air noise in the upper register.

I don't doubt that some of this can be mitigated by expert playing, as I've heard some truly lovely clips from Peter, played on off the shelf Generations that present all these characteristics to a beginning whistler.

Even with all the quirks, there is a certain special character to the sound of a Generation whistle that doesn't seem to be attainable with most other whistles, which I think is the reason Generations are so prized and so loyally defended by those who "get it" about what's special with them.

I think there's a reason why children in Ireland can get started with off the shelf Generations and do fine, but beginning whistlers in the U.S. and elsewhere are often put off by them, and it isn't because the issues with off the shelf Generations are imaginary.

The fact of being surrounded by the music, such that seeing/hearing such whistles played by people they know is a natural part of their experience, having steady access to excellent, in person instruction from an early age, perhaps having fewer distractions, a less helter skelter pace of life, less of a consumerist, "throwaway" culture, and perhaps also a certain character of national temperament, maybe with a greater ability to accept a certain amount of adversity in pursuing a goal (Lord knows this country owes a tremendous debt to the legendary perserverance of Irish immigrants who have dug our canals, mined our coal, worked our shipyards and docks, etc.) may be reasons why Irish children get the hang of off the shelf Generations but American adults often put them aside and go looking for a different whistle.

I have noticed some of the issues with off the shelf Generations in clips I've heard of some of the greatest whistlers ever recorded. The playing is masterful, but I could still hear some of the buzzes, nonmusical air noise, etc. (I would distinguish these sounds from the basic, desirable chiff, which is heard mainly as a sort of chirp at the beginning of certain notes.)

Best wishes,
Jerry

This is 'must-read' for anyone who joins here. It should be on the front page.

[Jason Paul]

Great posts guys.

I'm beginning to see what you're talking about. I guess I'm still so new to whistles that I haven't really tried to take apart and analyze the sounds that come from the whistle.

When I play my off-the-shelf Generation D, it sounds fine to me on the surface. But if I pay attention to the subtle nuances, I can see what you mean.

I wouldn't go so far as to say they sound awful or are unplayable, but I can certainly see the validity of negative comments by more experienced players.

Thanks,
Jason

[Bikehunter]

I got lucky. On the day I was about to buy a whistle off ebay, I visited a local second hand store and found, like new, C and D Sweetones, a C Clarke "original" (silver with the wooden "plug") and a Generation B flat (nickel, with blue) and a D Feadog. All with cute little, homemade carrying cases.....for a grand total of 9 bucks. (you can see I'm a rank beginner by the fact that I don't know the proper terms for the parts)

The tapered shape of all the Clarke's are MUCH easier for me to play than the Generation or the Feadog. I don't know if the B flat Generation is harder for me because of the shape, or the different hole size and spacing, or whatever. All I know is it screeches and buzzes.....and the Clarke's don't.

By far the best sound, to my ear, is the older style, silver Clarke, with the wood in the mouthpiece. The Feadog was so awful, in my inept hands.......I gave it to a guy I don't like (really).

So, as practically everyone has said, buy two or three and let'er rip.

[straycat82]

At the same time though, as you get comfortable on the Clarke I'd even go back and visit your Generation again. They will definitely teach you more about breath control than a Clarke as they are a much more sensitive whistle. I think the Bb is one of my favorite Generation whistles that I have. It would be better if it was a bit stronger in the upper register but it is still a nice whistle. Also, on the Bb you may have to use a modified pipers grip if you have small hands. I use the pipers grip for my lower hand and a regular grip for my top hand... find something that feels comfortable and doesn't make you stress your hand too much.

[Jack]

and on my Jerry Freeman-tweaked SweeTone:

http://www.savefile.com/files/4356462

Ah, Freeman-tweaked SweeTones. I like them. For a while I owned the world's only Freeman-tweaked Meg. And now I own a Freeman-tweeked Mellow D. I love Freeman-tweaked whistles in general.

[Bikehunter]

At the same time though, as you get comfortable on the Clarke I'd even go back and visit your Generation again. They will definitely teach you more about breath control than a Clarke as they are a much more sensitive whistle. I think the Bb is one of my favorite Generation whistles that I have. It would be better if it was a bit stronger in the upper register but it is still a nice whistle. Also, on the Bb you may have to use a modified pipers grip if you have small hands. I use the pipers grip for my lower hand and a regular grip for my top hand... find something that feels comfortable and doesn't make you stress your hand too much.

Thanks for that tip. I just found a link that illustrated the correct piper's grip for a Low D and it seemed to work ok on the B flat. I kinda gave up on it because it was frustrating for a naturally impatiet type. I do have relatively small hands, so that may be part of the problem.

[pkev]

Just for a comparison, I recorded a jig "Banish Misfortune" and posted on clips and snips a few weeks back using a `Bb Generation`. Just to give folks an idea of the sound if interested. I personally didn't think there was anything wrong with the sound.

Cheers
pkev