Look, this is a good discussion. I'd like to see it continue. But if we start going for each other's throats I will lock it down. Please refrain from this sort of sh*t. Thanks.Beau Comiseau wrote:
Maybe you need to set down some of those wunderkinder and loosen up that flag you've wrapped yourself in. I think you're cutting off the flow of blood to your head a bit...
A business option for pipemakers
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Joseph E. Smith
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Beau Comiseau
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Aye, aye, Cap'm!Joseph E. Smith wrote:Look, this is a good discussion. I'd like to see it continue. But if we start going for each other's throats I will lock it down. Please refrain from this sort of sh*t. Thanks.Beau Comiseau wrote:
Maybe you need to set down some of those wunderkinder and loosen up that flag you've wrapped yourself in. I think you're cutting off the flow of blood to your head a bit...
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Paul Reid
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I cannot fault Peter for anything he's said to date on this topic. Right on Peter. As a middle aged mediocre player myself I would gladly subside to a younger person (with more potential) for waiting times on a set of pipes.
Interesting topic and one that I believe comes as a result of the popularity of the instrument itself over the last 15 years. The dynamic between demand and supply is itself fascinating and we've seen a blossoming of new makers as a consequence of many new players. New makers may realize that a meagre living can be acheived, an attractive alternative to a regular day job (?). Frankly, there is lots of room for new makers to get involved without affecting the waiting lists of the most reknowned makers. Imagine in another decade that there will be a great deal more experience on the street - the quality, from the average maker, will assumedly reach higher levels and there will be less waiting to acquire a fine set.
I'm seeing this as growing pains. In a perfect world, new makers will get to assist master pipe makers and acquire some much-needed experience. This tiny industry, by keeping standards exceptionally high, would benefit: the players, either the middle aged & un-prodigious, the tradition-steeped youth, and all levels in between. Less waiting? Likely.
As free enterprise is a distinct characteristic of commerce shared between the countries that create all quality sets of uilleann pipes, the maker is allowed a choice to service who he wants and on his own terms. Because a patron has a wallet full of extra cash, thankfully someone like Geoff Wooff can recognize that he is able to empower the tradition by putting selected sets in selected hands. He should be given a medal! On the other side, if a maker wants to rifle the sets out then go for it. For the sake and respect of the music, culture and of the instrument, just don't let greed supercede excellence.
Interesting topic and one that I believe comes as a result of the popularity of the instrument itself over the last 15 years. The dynamic between demand and supply is itself fascinating and we've seen a blossoming of new makers as a consequence of many new players. New makers may realize that a meagre living can be acheived, an attractive alternative to a regular day job (?). Frankly, there is lots of room for new makers to get involved without affecting the waiting lists of the most reknowned makers. Imagine in another decade that there will be a great deal more experience on the street - the quality, from the average maker, will assumedly reach higher levels and there will be less waiting to acquire a fine set.
I'm seeing this as growing pains. In a perfect world, new makers will get to assist master pipe makers and acquire some much-needed experience. This tiny industry, by keeping standards exceptionally high, would benefit: the players, either the middle aged & un-prodigious, the tradition-steeped youth, and all levels in between. Less waiting? Likely.
As free enterprise is a distinct characteristic of commerce shared between the countries that create all quality sets of uilleann pipes, the maker is allowed a choice to service who he wants and on his own terms. Because a patron has a wallet full of extra cash, thankfully someone like Geoff Wooff can recognize that he is able to empower the tradition by putting selected sets in selected hands. He should be given a medal! On the other side, if a maker wants to rifle the sets out then go for it. For the sake and respect of the music, culture and of the instrument, just don't let greed supercede excellence.
PR
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reedbiter
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dilemma...
Sorry Peter...I like the sound of young eager talents getting a hand up etc...it's very emotionally appealling and romantic... heck..I rather benefitted from this type of treatment...and yet at the same time it sticks in my craw...it's...well...unfair and un-democratic (lower-case d)
A rule if applied to one person, must apply to all. How would anyone of us like to be told they had been bumped off their waiting spot because some 14 year old kid showed promise?
The people getting bumped have EARNED their right to their spot, and paid damn good money for it. WHo's to say these kids will even keep playing for any length of time? How many of us out there can actually say they'd be willing to wait another 6 months to a year because they were being bumped by a "promising young player". I can tell you EXACTLY what the response would be. No, I'm sorry..but I simply can't condonde that as a business practice. There are PLENTY of used sets available for these young players.
Where there's a will there's a way. Do we need a pipe-fairy? Just click yer elbows together and wish for a set and poof?! All the good boys and girls in the world get pipes. Egads, this is what has brought about the scourge of the pakistan-made nightmares. That being said, pipes always seem to find their way into the hands of these kids..one way or another. Either through loaners, or hand me downs, or gifts / mercy. How many chanters can one piper play at a time? OR if yuo want to be tough...get a job. Mow some lawns. Clip a few shrubs. Milk the goat. D.Daye sells a good beginning stick. Davy Stephenson sells an amazing student chanter for around 160 pounds. A bag and bellows is not much more of an investment.
I fully understand and sympahize wih Peter's concern for these kids and cannot fault him in any way shape or form for that. But there are OTHER ways to provide pipes to the needy.
A rule if applied to one person, must apply to all. How would anyone of us like to be told they had been bumped off their waiting spot because some 14 year old kid showed promise?
The people getting bumped have EARNED their right to their spot, and paid damn good money for it. WHo's to say these kids will even keep playing for any length of time? How many of us out there can actually say they'd be willing to wait another 6 months to a year because they were being bumped by a "promising young player". I can tell you EXACTLY what the response would be. No, I'm sorry..but I simply can't condonde that as a business practice. There are PLENTY of used sets available for these young players.
Where there's a will there's a way. Do we need a pipe-fairy? Just click yer elbows together and wish for a set and poof?! All the good boys and girls in the world get pipes. Egads, this is what has brought about the scourge of the pakistan-made nightmares. That being said, pipes always seem to find their way into the hands of these kids..one way or another. Either through loaners, or hand me downs, or gifts / mercy. How many chanters can one piper play at a time? OR if yuo want to be tough...get a job. Mow some lawns. Clip a few shrubs. Milk the goat. D.Daye sells a good beginning stick. Davy Stephenson sells an amazing student chanter for around 160 pounds. A bag and bellows is not much more of an investment.
I fully understand and sympahize wih Peter's concern for these kids and cannot fault him in any way shape or form for that. But there are OTHER ways to provide pipes to the needy.
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reedbiter
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dilemma...
D'oh! double post..and I sit corrected, Paul Reid says you can bump him on whatever list he's on if you are younger!! heh heh!
p.s. there aren't exactly a teeming mass of youth clamoring to be the next Paddy Keenan or to become apprentices! Personally I could use an extra hand or two around the shop!
p.s. there aren't exactly a teeming mass of youth clamoring to be the next Paddy Keenan or to become apprentices! Personally I could use an extra hand or two around the shop!
Last edited by reedbiter on Thu Mar 22, 2007 8:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Father Emmet
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It's often the middle aged (unprodigious or otherwise) that inspire the young prodigy. Would we have a Paddy Keenan or Matt Molloy today had their fathers and their fathers fathers not played? Ciaran Carson writes about being inspired his father, a concertina player who didn't have more than a handful of tunes. Getting the instrument out there is the important thing.
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Paul Reid
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Re: dilemma...
What makes you think you have any rights? Time? Queue? You have no entitlement.reedbiter wrote:The people getting bumped have EARNED their right to their spot, and paid damn good money for it.
As unappealing as this may be to you, it's not your business we're talking about. Apparently there is not only a choice for consumers but also for manufacturers. Seems fair to me. You simply cannot expect to bully yourself into owning a premium set. BTW, I'm not attacking you personally, these are moreover ideological statements.reedbiter wrote:No, I'm sorry..but I simply can't condonde that as a business practice.
Are you willing to be a philanthropist? Suggest alternative ways please.reedbiter wrote:But there are OTHER ways to provide pipes to the needy.
I agree, but I say mildly, a premium set in the right hands is more inspiring. The father's father element is culturally much less significant on my continent, though I thoroughly subscribe to its benefits.Father Emmet wrote:It's often the middle aged (unprodigious or otherwise) that inspire the young prodigy. Would we have a Paddy Keenan or Matt Molloy today had their fathers and their fathers fathers not played? Ciaran Carson writes about being inspired his father, a concertina player who didn't have more than a handful of tunes. Getting the instrument out there is the important thing.
PR
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Cayden
Listen, I am not saying it's an ideal situation but it's something I observe, something that is happening. I remember one old player asking a particular maker what he'd charge for a 'chanter like that' (mine). The reply was 'depends who's asking' which was a way of giving the old man the nod that he would be treated with consideration.
These things are not black and white, there are extremely talented young players who are raring to go, makers have to make choices and I think it's a good thing they every now and again choose to let one of these kids in, keeping and eye on the future and at the same time knowing their instrument will be played and will be played well. As I said before, pipemaking is not an easy job and especially the ones at it for a long time just plainly need that satisfaction/motivation to keep going.
I have seen a lot of huffing on the adjacent flute forum about a particular flutemaker who indeed quietly has a different set of rules and prices for local young players at the cost of overseas beginners ordering their fifth or sixth flute. Fair play to him I say.
Is it fair on the ones on the list (who have not 'earned the right' or 'paid good money' by the way, they're just on the list in the knowledge they will at one point get the call their set is about to get started)? No, it isn't. Do consider though that quite a few people on lists withdraw at the point their sets are ready to be made and in a few cases when it's already made and I know of one case where a piper forced a large deposit on a maker (who would only have accepted it under normal circumstances when work was commencing) in hopes he'd go up the list only to demand it back a few years later and sending a solicitor's letter demanding the full deposit and a (high) interest from the maker. I mean, hassle and unfair things work both ways and there are plenty of stories where that one came from.
So far from thinking it's an ideal situation I think makers of instruments have to and in a lot of cases do take things into consideration and balance factors in a situation that is thankfully not ruled by cold marketforces and whatever the highest bidder or the cash rich demand.
These things are not black and white, there are extremely talented young players who are raring to go, makers have to make choices and I think it's a good thing they every now and again choose to let one of these kids in, keeping and eye on the future and at the same time knowing their instrument will be played and will be played well. As I said before, pipemaking is not an easy job and especially the ones at it for a long time just plainly need that satisfaction/motivation to keep going.
I have seen a lot of huffing on the adjacent flute forum about a particular flutemaker who indeed quietly has a different set of rules and prices for local young players at the cost of overseas beginners ordering their fifth or sixth flute. Fair play to him I say.
Is it fair on the ones on the list (who have not 'earned the right' or 'paid good money' by the way, they're just on the list in the knowledge they will at one point get the call their set is about to get started)? No, it isn't. Do consider though that quite a few people on lists withdraw at the point their sets are ready to be made and in a few cases when it's already made and I know of one case where a piper forced a large deposit on a maker (who would only have accepted it under normal circumstances when work was commencing) in hopes he'd go up the list only to demand it back a few years later and sending a solicitor's letter demanding the full deposit and a (high) interest from the maker. I mean, hassle and unfair things work both ways and there are plenty of stories where that one came from.
So far from thinking it's an ideal situation I think makers of instruments have to and in a lot of cases do take things into consideration and balance factors in a situation that is thankfully not ruled by cold marketforces and whatever the highest bidder or the cash rich demand.
Last edited by Cayden on Thu Mar 22, 2007 9:29 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Beau Comiseau
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Returning to civil discourse, I find Mr. Laban's propositions (stated and implied) both contradictory and disturbing to a certain extent (especially the meta-message contained therein):
1. Pipemakers want their instruments to end up in the hands of the talented few who can play them well and develop into first-rate players.
2. These talented few have little money and are young in age.
3. People who start piping at an older age are a negative influence on the practice because they are untalented and have a lot of money to throw away wily-nily and buy up resources that would otherwise be available to these talented, yet poor young people.
4. In addition to buying up these resources, these old untalented, but rich people drive the prices up in the uilleann pipe market.
5. Pipemakers have no choice but to sell their wares to these old untalented people and raise their prices so that they can continue to sell only to such clients.
Am I missing something here? Just because there exists a pool of untalented, but rich customers doesn't mean that the pipe makers have to (1) sell everything they have to them and (2) raise their prices as a result. Dare I say greed may be a factor here as well? And, doesn't this contradict the first proposition that pipemakers only want their products to go to deserving buyers who have the wherewithall to master them?
It would be entirely up to them to vet their clients the same way a seller of, say, pure-breed dogs do.
If the counterargument is that the pipemakers are in dire need of money and cannot resist the influx of funds from such old, untalented, rich people, then, the latter should be praised for keeping them in business.
1. Pipemakers want their instruments to end up in the hands of the talented few who can play them well and develop into first-rate players.
2. These talented few have little money and are young in age.
3. People who start piping at an older age are a negative influence on the practice because they are untalented and have a lot of money to throw away wily-nily and buy up resources that would otherwise be available to these talented, yet poor young people.
4. In addition to buying up these resources, these old untalented, but rich people drive the prices up in the uilleann pipe market.
5. Pipemakers have no choice but to sell their wares to these old untalented people and raise their prices so that they can continue to sell only to such clients.
Am I missing something here? Just because there exists a pool of untalented, but rich customers doesn't mean that the pipe makers have to (1) sell everything they have to them and (2) raise their prices as a result. Dare I say greed may be a factor here as well? And, doesn't this contradict the first proposition that pipemakers only want their products to go to deserving buyers who have the wherewithall to master them?
It would be entirely up to them to vet their clients the same way a seller of, say, pure-breed dogs do.
If the counterargument is that the pipemakers are in dire need of money and cannot resist the influx of funds from such old, untalented, rich people, then, the latter should be praised for keeping them in business.
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No E
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Just for the record (speaking as a middle-aged Californian of dubious musical ability), the set I play now sat unused for more than a decade under the previous owner's bed. I hope I wasn't clogging-up the works too much. 
I have no objection to a maker cutting a special deal (financially, temporally or both) to a promising young player or a great player of any age. Perhaps it is the patronage of affluent dilettantes that allows the pipemaker the financial flexibility to do so.
No E
I have no objection to a maker cutting a special deal (financially, temporally or both) to a promising young player or a great player of any age. Perhaps it is the patronage of affluent dilettantes that allows the pipemaker the financial flexibility to do so.
No E
PTE--World Tour 2009-until we're all dead.
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reedbiter
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whoops
Paul....
I think you might've misunderstood me. First of all, if you didn't know, I'm David Boisvert (www.greenwoodpipes.com) so I'm speaking first as a pipemaker with customers.
You quoted that I had no rights in a queue. Well, I assume you mean the customers. I must heartily, and respectfully disagree. By our contratual agreement and the principa of first come first serve, and simple common courtesy..yes indeed. The people in line DO HAVE RIGHTS. Either through the fact that they got there first and have been waiting their turn respectfully, or through the fact that they paid for their their place in the line.
I entirely understand you are not attacking me. I did not sense any maliciousness whatsoever. Nor was any intended through any of my posts. I do indeed know that a specific pipemaker has been mentioned in this discussion. But I make it my policy to do my very darned best not* to discuss or make value judgements any other pipemaker or their work. Occasionally I fail. As such I was simply applying the discussion to my own thoughts and preferences and sense of business ethics.
Can you clarify which point you are argueing? "You simply cannot bully yourself into owning a premium set"
I agree with this sentiment. I think it unfair that someone might get bumped from their rightful spot in the queue. Here in MN we call them "budders".
Aha, pipes for the needy.
1. Piping clubs could, provide rental practice sets or possibly loaners to new students until they've decided whether or not to continue playing.
2. And while I may not be a philanthropist (I'm too poor for that!) I've given away quite a few instruments.
3. Music and Arts associations. These groups SHOULD aid new players by providing loaners and rentals. This is a sore spot for me. We have a local Irish Arts school/association that seems to be rather...hmm..oblivious? Not quite surehow best to describe it. I've aproached them on many occasions offering to provide budget practice sets and a tremendous discount but I was ignored out of hand. Had there been even a polite response they would've discovered I already had 3 sets ready to donate.
There ARE ways. Maybe I'm sounding /being callous...but as I said above, get a job!
I think you might've misunderstood me. First of all, if you didn't know, I'm David Boisvert (www.greenwoodpipes.com) so I'm speaking first as a pipemaker with customers.
You quoted that I had no rights in a queue. Well, I assume you mean the customers. I must heartily, and respectfully disagree. By our contratual agreement and the principa of first come first serve, and simple common courtesy..yes indeed. The people in line DO HAVE RIGHTS. Either through the fact that they got there first and have been waiting their turn respectfully, or through the fact that they paid for their their place in the line.
I entirely understand you are not attacking me. I did not sense any maliciousness whatsoever. Nor was any intended through any of my posts. I do indeed know that a specific pipemaker has been mentioned in this discussion. But I make it my policy to do my very darned best not* to discuss or make value judgements any other pipemaker or their work. Occasionally I fail. As such I was simply applying the discussion to my own thoughts and preferences and sense of business ethics.
Can you clarify which point you are argueing? "You simply cannot bully yourself into owning a premium set"
I agree with this sentiment. I think it unfair that someone might get bumped from their rightful spot in the queue. Here in MN we call them "budders".
Aha, pipes for the needy.
1. Piping clubs could, provide rental practice sets or possibly loaners to new students until they've decided whether or not to continue playing.
2. And while I may not be a philanthropist (I'm too poor for that!) I've given away quite a few instruments.
3. Music and Arts associations. These groups SHOULD aid new players by providing loaners and rentals. This is a sore spot for me. We have a local Irish Arts school/association that seems to be rather...hmm..oblivious? Not quite surehow best to describe it. I've aproached them on many occasions offering to provide budget practice sets and a tremendous discount but I was ignored out of hand. Had there been even a polite response they would've discovered I already had 3 sets ready to donate.
There ARE ways. Maybe I'm sounding /being callous...but as I said above, get a job!
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reedbiter
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thanks Peter
While I disagree with some of Peter's statements and assumptions (or at least my interpretations of them) he has made some good points.
Ahh and then there's reality. You are of course right Peter. It DOES still happen. Guys get bumped and what not. I myself have been the victim of callous customers unfairly insisting on every penny returned, leaving myself and my family in a VERY precarious position..having to take out a loan just to stop the harassing and insulting and malicious phone calls. The incident in mind occurred while I was literally still wrapped from finger to elbow after surgery, and the order was cancelled prematurely.
Now, here is the most important part. JUST BECAUSE I AM TREATED UNFAIRLY DOES NOT MEAN I SHOULD TREAT SOMEONE ELSE UNFAIRLY.
Since part f this discussion has referenced G. Wooff, please understand that I am in no way referring to him. I don't know Geoff. I don't know what he has or has not done. And frankly, it's not my business or concern. I can only address my own personal practices and ethics. I REALLY hope I'm not coming across as haughty or judgemental in this issue. I can be such a pain in the ass..open-mouth-insert-foot etc. It's just that I've just tried to be VERY careful about this issue.
Peter hit the nail on the head. Pipemaking can be gruelling and hard on the spirit. It's a craft, an art....and inspiration can be hard to come by. This brings me back to one of my earlier points in regards to pipes and pipemaking being a very PERSONAL endeavor. It's no secret Joe Smith, the evil and very bizarre moderator is an old friend of mine. I hadn't heard from the old sot in nearly a decade when he plopped into my order book! I have a personal investment in my pipes. I love them. I pour hours and hours of intense labor into them. I cry over them. I bleed into them. They carry my joy, my sorrow and my pride. I take GREAT pride in them and the satisfaction I get is knowing where they are going, and into whose hands. Joe's set carries a lot of "unlooked for extras". Not for any reason other than because I LIKE to do that. It made his set special.
So maybe that explains the natural desire to "squeeze" someone in. To take on that kid with the goofy smile who just seems to have that certain touch. If "squeezing in" an order like this can be done without having a detrimental effect on the other's in the queue, then I could ethically condone the practice. In fact, it would be wise to "build in" these empty slots in one's order book...hmmm...
Ahh and then there's reality. You are of course right Peter. It DOES still happen. Guys get bumped and what not. I myself have been the victim of callous customers unfairly insisting on every penny returned, leaving myself and my family in a VERY precarious position..having to take out a loan just to stop the harassing and insulting and malicious phone calls. The incident in mind occurred while I was literally still wrapped from finger to elbow after surgery, and the order was cancelled prematurely.
Now, here is the most important part. JUST BECAUSE I AM TREATED UNFAIRLY DOES NOT MEAN I SHOULD TREAT SOMEONE ELSE UNFAIRLY.
Since part f this discussion has referenced G. Wooff, please understand that I am in no way referring to him. I don't know Geoff. I don't know what he has or has not done. And frankly, it's not my business or concern. I can only address my own personal practices and ethics. I REALLY hope I'm not coming across as haughty or judgemental in this issue. I can be such a pain in the ass..open-mouth-insert-foot etc. It's just that I've just tried to be VERY careful about this issue.
Peter hit the nail on the head. Pipemaking can be gruelling and hard on the spirit. It's a craft, an art....and inspiration can be hard to come by. This brings me back to one of my earlier points in regards to pipes and pipemaking being a very PERSONAL endeavor. It's no secret Joe Smith, the evil and very bizarre moderator is an old friend of mine. I hadn't heard from the old sot in nearly a decade when he plopped into my order book! I have a personal investment in my pipes. I love them. I pour hours and hours of intense labor into them. I cry over them. I bleed into them. They carry my joy, my sorrow and my pride. I take GREAT pride in them and the satisfaction I get is knowing where they are going, and into whose hands. Joe's set carries a lot of "unlooked for extras". Not for any reason other than because I LIKE to do that. It made his set special.
So maybe that explains the natural desire to "squeeze" someone in. To take on that kid with the goofy smile who just seems to have that certain touch. If "squeezing in" an order like this can be done without having a detrimental effect on the other's in the queue, then I could ethically condone the practice. In fact, it would be wise to "build in" these empty slots in one's order book...hmmm...
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tommykleen
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- Tell us something.: I am interested in the uilleann pipes and their typical -and broader- use. I have been composing and arranging for the instrument lately. I enjoy unusual harmonic combinations on the pipes. I use the pipes to play music of other cultures.
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Re: whoops
Reedbiter: Check your PMsreedbiter wrote: We have a local Irish Arts school/association that seems to be rather...hmm..oblivious? Not quite surehow best to describe it. I've aproached them on many occasions offering to provide budget practice sets and a tremendous discount but I was ignored out of hand. Had there been even a polite response they would've discovered I already had 3 sets ready to donate.
Tk
www.gnipc.org
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Paul Reid
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Hi David,
I guess I'm argueing that a wad of cash does not secure your position ahead of anyone else, richer or poorer; that occassionally there are cases where it is actually considerate to delay someone on "the list" to someone who is in an age/ability situation with an inferior chanter. Makers are clearly not creating pipes to be wealthy, though you can give me your take on that, however, cash on the barrel may or may not be a motivating factor. I'm subscribing that a list should be honoured, but not so rigid as to not be reasonable.
I'm getting a little distracted at work to pontificate any further, but I hope I've responded to everything
I agree with the common courtesy arguement completely. No rights, I admit, was a little absolute sounding. But there may be extenuating circumstances that allows someone like yourself to recognize an opportunity lost if you have to go strictly by the list. Should a younger gifted player wait too long for a decent set - when is too late? If you're talking about legal contractual obligations because you have a signed or verbal contract then I guess that's different (sorry if I'm assuming anything) and that IS your business. Even if it is your integrity that says first comes first, and by so subscribing then you've made some honourable, albeit rigid, decisions. I know protocol is different for other makers, no less honourable, that might favour special cases.You quoted that I had no rights in a queue. Well, I assume you mean the customers. I must heartily, and respectfully disagree. By our contractual agreement and the principal of first come first serve, and simple common courtesy..yes indeed. The people in line DO HAVE RIGHTS. Either through the fact that they got there first and have been waiting their turn respectfully, or through the fact that they paid for their their place in the line.
I guess I'm argueing that a wad of cash does not secure your position ahead of anyone else, richer or poorer; that occassionally there are cases where it is actually considerate to delay someone on "the list" to someone who is in an age/ability situation with an inferior chanter. Makers are clearly not creating pipes to be wealthy, though you can give me your take on that, however, cash on the barrel may or may not be a motivating factor. I'm subscribing that a list should be honoured, but not so rigid as to not be reasonable.
I'm getting a little distracted at work to pontificate any further, but I hope I've responded to everything
PR
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Tony
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- Tell us something.: I used to play pipes about 20 years ago and suddenly abducted by aliens.
Not sure why... but it's 2022 and I'm mysteriously baack... - Location: Surlyville
#4) If prices of pipes are based on time & materials, these prices will increase gradually. It's the resale of pipes that seem to reach new limitsBeau Comiseau wrote:.......
4. In addition to buying up these resources, these old untalented, but rich people drive the prices up in the uilleann pipe market.
5. Pipemakers have no choice but to sell their wares to these old untalented people and raise their prices so that they can continue to sell only to such clients.
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#5) Should it matter (profit & loss) if the pipes go to a talent or a non-talent? Everyone already knows the percentage of working musicians buying new pipes is very low.