Just intonation, Equal temperament, and Irish flutes...

[david_h]

What happens with tunes in 'non-D' modes? E dorian for example. They often sound good over an E drone, so presumably the melody would tend to a just scale based on E. Do pipers play E dorian over the D drone ?

[pancelticpiper]

No, since the pipes are always playing over the D drone, the notes have to be "just" according to D, regardless of which key the tune itself is in. (Yes the pipes play tunes in various keys, though the matter of key with traditional tunes is often a matter of debate anyway and not of concern to the piper.) The matter is a practical one, that is, to sound in tune. So, the notes of an uilleann chanter are tuned in such a way so as to sound in tune in the environment they exist in, which is over a D drone. Thus, they use the tuning called "just intonation" in music theory, but to pipers it's not a theory, it's simply playing in tune.
Likewise acappela vocal groups and brass ensembles will by force of their ears sing and play in just intonation whether they realise it or not. Their ear will not let them hold onto the Equal Temperament major third, which would be screamingly sharp against the rest of the group.

[boyd]

Most of you will have heard pipes that were ever so slightly out of tune without realising it.
A few of you will have been lucky enough to hear absolutely perfectly tunes pipes.
But most of you won't....(and what I am writing will therefore probably be lost to you...but persevere for a minute if you can...)
You will have heard "harmonics"...the instrument seems to hum or buzz in some extra dimension. The sounds seem to go though you, the air is full of resonating sound, extra "hidden" notes.
In physics terms, sound waves are interacting in a resonant fashion to provide larger waves and fresh notes ... "harmonic" notes.

So......

Why do really properly tuned bagpipes or uilleann pipes sound so amazing in real life?

Go to:

http://www.uilleannobsession.com/extras_geoffwooff.html

This link will explain a lot of it for you in simple terms.


Boyd.

[Cork]

...any good ideas for drone/tone generators against which to practice pure intervals?

Provided that you are playing a flute in pitched in D (ala Irish flute), begin with a tuning fork, also pitched in D, and treat your ears to that D pitch until you know it well, really, really well.

Then, play that exact tone on your flute. Feel free to strike the tuning fork whenever you wish to check your tuning on the flute. Play it until you have it nailed, perfectly.

Then, using that D pitch as a reference tone, tune all other intervals to that reference pitch. Again, use ONLY that D as a reference, and tune all other tones to it.

Basically, when it sounds right, it is right.

That's about all there is to it.

While the above method works toward tuning to "just" intonation, it most unfortunately is true, at least for most players, that tuning to "equal" temperament involves a far greater degree of practise, practise, practise, in essence all the way around the circle of fifths.

Equal temperament inspired J.S.Bach to write The Well Tempered Calvier, or well tempered harpsicord, where unlike a piano, a harpsicord can be tuned by individual pressure on its keys. Bach lived before the time of the piano.

[jemtheflute]

Equal temperament inspired J.S.Bach to write The Well Tempered Calvier, or well tempered harpsicord, where unlike a piano, a harpsicord can be tuned by individual pressure on its keys. Bach lived before the time of the piano.

You cannot alter the intonation of a note on a harpsichord by pressure on the key. Harpsichords pluck the strings with a real or leather quill. Once it has passed the string, setting it vibrating, it does not contact it again until next struck. The keyboard levers are not connected to the strings in any other way, so cannot influence their pitch, which is fixed as tuned. There is also little dynamic variation available through the keys. I think you may be thinking of the clavichord, an instrument much favoured by both J.S and C.P.E. Bach for its subtlety of expression, where the key lifts a metal blade (tangent) to strike the string to sound it, at the same time defining the sounding length by where it contacts the string, and capable of being held against the string by the key-lever in such a manner that pressure on the key can stretch the string, making note-bending possible as well as dynamics in terms of how hard the key is struck and therefore how much energy is imparted to the string in turn.

Early pianos were available within Bach's playing career. It is debatable whether he used or advocated Equal Temperament - there was actually a system called "Well Temperament" in his era, one of many being experimented with. As keyboard players often tuned their own instruments at that time, he certainly had expertise in the area, but we do not know for sure what his preference was, and it may indeed have changed through his lifetime. It certainly cannot be stated that he was inspired to write "The Well Tempered Clavier" by the emergence of Equal Temperament. Temperament in keyboard instruments was a big issue in his time and if anything that work was an exploration of the issue.
"Clavier" is the German word for "key", and by extension "keyboard". It was often applied without further clarification to the harpsichord as the most common keyboard of the era: later it became shorthand for the piano ("hammer-klavier") as that instrument became dominant.

[david_h]

So what about a flute not playing over a D drone ? Some of the notes of just scales based on the home note of other modes are far enough from those of a D scale for even me to notice in a melody. I often find E dorian unsatisfying on whistle because the final E often sounds wrong - too sharp or not loud enough. I suspect it is because the F# and G of a just D scale are quite a lot flatter than in an E-scale and I am wanting the E flatter to fit in.

Does the influence of the pipes and their drone have an effect on the intonation of irish tunes - do some tunes in 'non-D' modes tend sound 'right' in a just D-scale even if no drone is present ?

Yes on the acappela voices. Just occasionally at novice vocal workshops I and someone with a similar voice in another part standing next to me have got an interval of a fourth or fifth spot on. As boyd says, the sound seems to go right through you.

[jemtheflute]

That harmonic buzz factor applies to flutes too - accounts for that wonderful pearly sound you get (in any musical genre) from two flutes played well in tune with each other in harmony.

[Cork]

Equal temperament inspired J.S.Bach to write The Well Tempered Calvier, or well tempered harpsicord, where unlike a piano, a harpsicord can be tuned by individual pressure on its keys. Bach lived before the time of the piano.

You cannot alter the intonation of a note on a harpsichord by pressure on the key...

You are wrong. You do not know whereof you speak.

[jemtheflute]

You are wrong. You do not know whereof you speak.

Sorry mate, think I do. Refrained from saying same to your previous. I'm a long-time listener to and reader about Baroque music and period performance matters, including the instruments. Furthermore, I checked up on both temperament and J.S. Bach and on keyboards in reference works available to me before posting - and double checked before writing this. Are you a harpsichordist or harpsichord maker? If not, what is your knowledge base? I do not claim a specialist academic level of expertise, but a significantly better than average one.

One of the reasons the Bachs liked clavichords for their personal use was precisely the greater expressiveness they offered by comparison with harpsichords. However, they were structurally/volume-wise only suitable for chamber use and could not compete for large scale ensemble work or in large spaces. The supplanting of the harpsichord by the fortepiano was for similar reasons of greater expressive capabilities harnessed with competitive volume.

[sbfluter]

This discussion has come up in the dulcimer forums. Mountain dulcimer, that is. Boggles my addled brain that's for sure. But drones and frets oh my. No wonder it never sounds in tune.

[peeplj]

Equal temperament inspired J.S.Bach to write The Well Tempered Calvier, or well tempered harpsicord, where unlike a piano, a harpsicord can be tuned by individual pressure on its keys. Bach lived before the time of the piano.

You cannot alter the intonation of a note on a harpsichord by pressure on the key...

You are wrong. You do not know whereof you speak.

NLU had a harpsichord, and I played alongside it in recital several times.

A harpsichord works like this: when you press a key, on its way down a plectrum plucks the string to make the sound. How hard you press the key doesn't matter or change the sound. When you release the key the plectrum resets so that it can pluck the string again the next time the key is depressed.

A lovely instrument, but limited.

You cannot change either the intonation or the volume by changing the pressure on the keys.

Perhaps you are thinking of a different keyboard instrument?

--James

[groxburgh]

[quote="david_h"]So what about a flute [i]not[/i] playing over a D drone ? Some of the notes of just scales based on the home note of other modes are far enough from those of a D scale for even me to notice in a melody. I often find E dorian unsatisfying on whistle because the final E often sounds wrong - too sharp or not loud enough. I suspect it is because the F# and G of a just D scale are quite a lot flatter than in an E-scale and I am wanting the E flatter to fit in.
[/quote]

Well spotted David. The problem is that a just tuned scale only sounds correct for the one key so for a whistle which is just tuned in D major/ionian anything in G major/ionian or related has a problem and the note that is wrong is in fact E!

E dorian maybe should sound OK since it's related to D ionian but E aeolian is related to G ionian and should sound wrong - perhaps someone else can explain this! Certainly if you have an instrument just tuned in D major then the Es will sound sharp when playing in G major.

As already mentioned in this thread:
Looking at the just tuned D major scale we have compared to equal temperment:
D: 0
E: +4 (2nd)
F#: -14 (3rd)
G: -2 (4th)
A: +2 (5th)
B: -16 (6th)
C#: -12 (debatable) (major 7th)
So look at the intervals if you now play a G major scale
Compared to G at 0
G: 0
A: +4 (2nd)
B: -14 (3rd)
C: -2 (4th) (wasn't in our D major scale so make it correct)
D: +2 (5th)
E: +6 (6th)
F#: -12 (7th)

And you can see the problem with the E
The 6th in the G major scale is supposed to be -16 cents but is +6 ie. It's 22 cents sharp!

However don't forget we get used to what we hear and something that's been "wrong" for long enough gets to be part of the tradition.

[Cork]

You are wrong. You do not know whereof you speak.

Sorry mate, think I do. Refrained from saying same to your previous. I'm a long-time listener to and reader about Baroque music and period performance matters, including the instruments. Furthermore, I checked up on both temperament and J.S. Bach and on keyboards in reference works available to me before posting - and double checked before writing this. Are you a harpsichordist or harpsichord maker? If not, what is your knowledge base? I do not claim a specialist academic level of expertise, but a significantly better than average one...

Nothing personal, jem, for I really do look forward to reading your posts.

However, the piano was developed largely due to the tuning variability of the harpsicord. They are both stringed instruments, but it is in the difference in how they are sounded, either hit or plucked, respectively, which makes them different instruments.

As a flute player, I have on only a few occasions touched a harpsicord, and about the same at piano. However, I do have extensive experience at playing with both. In terms of equal temperament, moreover, it takes a really good harpsicord player to match a good piano player.

Let me add, that I also picked up guitar, which in essence is a piano tuned instrument, at the age of eleven, and by the time I was seventeen I had hard, glassy fingertips from playing about five hours a day, but I then soured on piano scale, went back to flute exclusively, and have been sweet on playing just flute ever since.

[jemtheflute]

Nothing personal, Jem, for I really do look forward to reading your posts.

However, the piano was developed largely due to the tuning variability of the harpsicord. They are both stringed instruments, but it is in the difference in how they are sounded, either hit or plucked, respectively, which makes them different instruments.

As a flute player, I have on only a few occasions touched a harpsicord, and about the same at piano. However, I do have extensive experience at playing with both. In terms of equal temperament, moreover, it takes a really good harpsicord player to match a good piano player.

Let me add, that I also picked up guitar, which in essence is a piano tuned instrument, at the age of eleven, and by the time I was seventeen I had hard, glassy fingertips from playing about five hours a day, but I then soured on piano scale, then went back to flute, and have been sweet on playing flute ever since.

Likewise, Cork! But in this case at least I definitely do know whereof I speak (and have double checked myself) and it is apparent from your statements that you do not. Mind you, I've managed similarly to make a fool of myself a couple of times!

Not having a classical training, I've not had the opportunity to play with real harpsichords etc., only harpsichord effect on electronic keyboards (quite nice, actually!). However, I do have quite a good knowledge of organology (the history and technology of musical instruments) and a decent mechanical understanding. I have followed the period performance movement for about 30 years and am one of those people who reads the sleeve/insert notes of recordings in detail. I've read a lot about harpsichords and also about temperament!

From that base, I know that it is common for harpsichords not to be tuned in equal temperament - if you walk up to one in music room or hall somewhere, don't assume it will be! (Aside: I remember one occasion while I was at Uni going into the Music Department with my girlfriend who was a music student and there being a harpsichord in the main recital hall with a note on it saying it was not to be touched as it had just been tuned in quarter tones for some modern piece!). Further, because the frame of most harpsichords, including modern ones is of wood, their tuning is not necessarily very stable. (Early pianos with wooden frames had similar instability, especially as string tension was increased, leading eventually, when technology permitted, to the modern cast iron frame.) It is therefore not unusual for even modern harpsichord specialists to do their own tuning. I have seen players wielding a tuning key between movements at concerts I have attended, much as we expect to see harpists doing. (Another aside: many classically trained pianists who have not had specialist harpsichord training may not even know about tuning and temperament issues, let alone have a harpsichord technique.)

Whatever you may think you have experienced in playing with harpsichords, I'm afraid what you say about them does not make sense. In fact, it is mechanically impossible, as James pointed out, restating what I had said. I knew this stuff anyway, but I have checked in my copy of Baines's The Oxford Companion to Musical Instruments which has an extensive entry on harpsichord including detailed description and diagrams of their mechanisms, and in some other books on instruments I have. I suggest you refer to a similar source.

If you do, you will see that there is no mechanical means by which a performer can influence the intonation of a ("normal") harpsichord during performance. Some fancy ones have different voices available through use of stops etc. that vary the way the plectra and dampers are utilised, but none can alter the tuning during playing in any way. Finger action on the keys can barely even affect volume, let alone anything else. The player's only possible influence on tuning is upon what tuning temperament system he instructs the tuner to provide when setting up the instrument prior to performance.

A pianist, incidentally, is in scarcely a different position - he can instruct the tuner what tuning he requires (e.g "blues"/"honky-tonk"), but once it is tuned, it doesn't matter how he strikes the keys, he can only affect volume and attack, not intonation - the escapement on the hammers which withdraws them instantly after contact with the strings in order not to damp their vibration ensures that.

To affect the intonation during playing on any keyboard stringed instrument, there would have to be a mechanism for either bending or otherwise slackening/tightening the strings in order to affect their tension. I described before how that is possible on a clavichord, and it could conceivably be provided on a piano or harpsichord by dint of a pedal mechanism to adjust parts or the whole of the array of strings in a way analagous to the tension pedal on modern timpani, but I haven't heard of such an instrument and the expense of creating such would hardly be worth it in terms of the demand/classical performance criteria!

I would presume that a clavichordist would have to practice very hard the touch skills to ensure that he played in tune and only bent notes when positively intending to do so! (Yes, I do have some recordings of clavichord performances.)

Just in historical terms, you are wide of the mark in your explanation for the replacement of the harpsichord by the piano. You are right about the basic difference in the way the strings are set in vibration, but not much else. Early pianos were at least as unstable in their tuning as were harpsichords, due to the effects of string tension stresses and atmospheric variation on strings and frame. It was their ability to control most especially volume and also attack by how the keys were struck (hence their name, fortepiano at first, then pianoforte) that chiefly accounted for their gradually replacing harpsichords which were monochrome by comparison (though a beautiful and distinctive sound). The greater expressive possibilities they offered made them preferable in an age when music was becoming increasingly about emotive expression as well as increased dynamic range and harmonic colour - which of course fed back around on each other. As players wanted louder and more responsive instruments, so the technology struggled to respond. Beethoven was famous for wrecking pianos!

Your comment that "In terms of equal temperament, moreover, it takes a really good harpsichord player to match a good piano player" is, I'm afraid, nonsense. I repeat, once tuned pre-performance, the player cannot affect or influence the tuning in any way on either instrument by how he uses the keyboard. Please read up on the technology involved so that you understand the possibilities!

[peeplj]

Jem, good post. You may not have played alongside a harpsichord, but you seem to have a good understand of them.

Just in historical terms, you are wide of the mark in your explanation for the replacement of the harpsichord by the piano. You are right about the basic difference in the way the strings are set in vibration, but not much else. Early pianos were at least as unstable in their tuning as were harpsichords, due to the effect of string tension stresses and atmospheric variation effects on strings and frame. It was their ability to control most especially volume and also attack by how the keys were struck (hence their name, fortepiano at first, then pianoforte) that chiefly accounted for their gradually replacing harpsichords which were monochrome by comparison (though a beautiful and distinctive sound). The greater expressive possibilities they offered made them preferable in an age when music was becoming increasingly about emotive expression as well as increased dynamic range and harmonic colour - which of course fed back around on each other. As players wanted louder and more responsive instruments, so the technology struggled to respond. Beethoven was famous for wrecking pianos!

With both pianos and harpsichords, it wasn't uncommon to have to stop and retune in the middle of a performance to accomodate different keys--not stopping mid-piece, you understand, but between them. Tuners back then had to be very fast and accurate to do this; even though audiences then had a much longer attention span and much greater patience than now, you still only had a matter of minutes to get the job done.

When I started playing recorder seriously in college it only took one horrible recital for me to understand that recorder and modern piano is just not a good combination. On the other hand, recorder and harpsichord fit beautifully together, as long as the recorder player is careful to not overpower the harpsichord. They really don't play very loudly--a piano is a real monster by comparison of sound volume.

But their sound is just delightful.

Cork, I still think you must be thinking of a different instrument, just calling it the wrong name.

Are you sure you aren't thinking of this?

--James