The Flute Market : Supply & Demand

[Blackwood]

Flutes are like lawyers- there are too many of them but the good ones are always in demand.

but good flutes tend to be less slippery despite regular oiling...

[CranberryDog]

I would NEVER buy a flute for which there is a waiting period without having tried one first. To me, that's insanity, no matter how highly recommended.

John stands up and accepts the mantle of the insane.

...john

P.S. I love my new flute. You're welcome to try it too, if you want. Finn McCools ?

I too will gladly accept said mantle. And, you can have my brand new McGee Rudall Perfected when you pry it from my ....

I had a very enjoyable buying experience. Terry was generous with his time and advice. By the time I had learned enough to make a good decision; thanks to Terry and several forum members, I was confident in my selection. The flute has surpassed all my expectations.

Were I to purchase another wooden flute, I will gladly get in line for another McGee.

[Flutered]

So, there's been a variety of views here in relation to the ongoing value of flutes and how best to buy one. I think to summarise to date:

a) the market value of flutes from a few makers and old/ rare flutes will always keep top value.

b) 'second hand' flutes of other makers are seen to be overpriced by some. The arguement goes that if the selling price is close to cost of a new instrument, then one might as well join whatever waiting list there is and get a new model. Though I guess there are good reasons why a used model in good condition might well be preferable.

c) there is a squeeze on personal finances generally in the USA at present.

d) flute choice is a very personal thing. In terms of trying different instruments, it might be preferable to meet lots of other fluters by travelling, sessions, workshops and the like. The other model is to buy and sell flutes until you get some flute(s) you like. There are costs associated with both.

e) not unexpectedly, there has been a mostly silent response from flutemakers who might have a view on this! I don't guess anyone is in any hurry to divulge how many flutes they turn over in a year. But as long as second hand prices stay high and/or lots of new people are attracted into trad. fluting, the future seems fairly rosy. I guess a pleasant way to earn a crust, if not a little precarious.

f) lots of people are trying to sell flutes here these last few weeks....

[CranberryDog]

If we are to look at the instrument market and what market forces drive prices we should includes flutes as part of the market. Of course this seems obvious; but, some posters seem oblivious to this observation. Why would hand made Irish flutes not be subject to the same market forces that drive prices of other types of handmade instruments?

My wife plays piano and French horn. If you play either and are in the market or if you are a new buyer, be prepared to pay major dollars.

In 1997, I wanted to upgrade my flamenco guitar. After considerable research I selected the model and ordered it from a good dealer. The makers, two brothers, were located in Madrid, Spain; the wait time was 18 months; the price was $5500 USD. Today, my used guitar will sell for $9600 USD on average. Ordered from the maker the same model is $10,700 USD and the wait time is uncertain. That's not to say that after ten years, the makers are still in good health, use the same materials and building technique.

Just my 2%.

[Gordon]

If we are to look at the instrument market and what market forces drive prices we should includes flutes as part of the market. Of course this seems obvious; but, some posters seem oblivious to this observation. Why would hand made Irish flutes not be subject to the same market forces that drive prices of other types of handmade instruments?

My wife plays piano and French horn. If you play either and are in the market or if you are a new buyer, be prepared to pay major dollars.

In 1997, I wanted to upgrade my flamenco guitar. After considerable research I selected the model and ordered it from a good dealer. The makers, two brothers, were located in Madrid, Spain; the wait time was 18 months; the price was $5500 USD. Today, my used guitar will sell for $9600 USD on average. Ordered from the maker the same model is $10,700 USD and the wait time is uncertain. That's not to say that after ten years, the makers are still in good health, use the same materials and building technique.

Just my 2%.

All true, but what I think was being observed is that the buying market for used flutes - at the moment - seems to be smaller, or less willing to buy at higher prices, than in the recent past. Your guitar, new, may sell for almost 11K from the buyer, but you only assume (I'm guessing, since I'm sure you haven't tried to sell it), whether your used one would really sell at $9,600. I have a baroque flute, sometimes for sale (until I take it out and play it, fall in love again, etc.) that was around $1,100 new. Now, the maker sells the same flute for around $1400, and I'm quite sure he has been getting just that. However, I've tried to sell my used one for 1K, without a sale. Many reasons for this, I'm sure, but the bottom line is that what something may seem to be worth is not what you'll necessarily get for it. I've got a 1953 Steinway grand which every professional has told me is worth no less than 25K, but there are enough out there being sold for 15-19K that I've had trouble selling it. New ones, which are (generally) tonally inferior and not as well made, sell for $45000 or more. Yet, people in the market for a grand piano are willing to buy a new one for double the price because of its pristine look, the dealer's guarantee, etc. The people that most value the piano for its playability, are - in large part - pro or semi pro musicians who have, generally, less money than the non-pro that just want a Steinway in their living room.

Flutes are at their optimum when they're first made (after being "broken in") although most of us understand that the level of deterioration is almost non-existent, and would gladly play a worthy Rudall made 150 years ago over, say, a run-of-the-mill but decent new flute. Would we pay 5 grand for one, over a 1-2K new flute? Probably not, and mostly because of the cost. If money were not the issue, we might prefer the Rudall, in spite of the cost differential. Of course, if money weren't the issue, we'd have both, and then some. The market, however, is usually driven by buyers who are looking for the next flute, and are willing to or are able to pay for it. And that seems to be what - at the moment - is not happening as much.

[niallt]

One factor that might impact demand and price for resale flutes is the tendency of some sellers to restrict sales to their own country. Not mentioning any particular country, but I get the impression that it is normally (some) sellers from one country that tend to do this.

I'm not suggesting that sellers ship their Olwell flutes to Nigeria on the basis of a promise of a cheque, but with bank transfers and FedEx, it's really not that difficult or risky to ship a flute internationally these days.

I made enquiries about two flutes that were posted for sale on this board. One seller didn't bother replying (I asked him if he could ship it to Spain) and the other stated that he didn't want to sell outside his home country and that he would prefer to put it on Ebay.

It's rather ironic that some people with an interest in what is essentially a foreign style of music (well, foreign if you were not born in Ireland) would act in such an insular way.

[crookedtune]

Lots of undertones in that one. True enough, though. International mailing is a bit of a nuisance, but shouldn't be a deal-breaker.

[Lucas]

Lots of undertones in that one. True enough, though. International mailing is a bit of a nuisance, but shouldn't be a deal-breaker.

Well, I've sent flutes as far as Alaska and Indonesia (I'm based in Belgium, so that's quite a distance) and had no trouble at all getting them there and getting my money too. Shipping a flute to the US is no more of a nuisance than shipping it to the next town for me. International payment is a different thing. Everything in the Eurozone is OK. Outside that, non-euro Europe (UK, Norway) and the rest of the world is fairly easy. Only the US is next to impossible unless you work with Paypal. Sometimes I wonder if US banks ever do business abroad?

[jim stone]

Had some nightmarish experiences shipping to the UK.
In one case I returned a flute to the seller; UK customs then
slapped a vast sum on it, the seller therefore refused
to receive it, it got shipped back to me allegedly airmail
(as I'd sent it), it didn't arrive, we were working out
the insurance claims when it showed up several
months later--sea mail! Then I shipped it to the UK....

Similarly Canada can be complicated.

The US doesn't charge customs on flutes, I believe.

[rama]

certain states do have sales tax, and because of booming internet sales, are eager to collect alot of taxes due. 2 years after i received flute they notified me, found out thru from customs' logs.

[sponge]

I have bought a few instruments from sellers in the USA, the only real problem is UK customs, if you know what they are going to sting your for, which is always 17.5 percent vat and anywhere between 3.5 and 7 percent duty depending on the code you are given for a particular instrument or item, there really is'nt any other serious issues if buying an expensive piece of kit then you would have to factor in the cost of the safest delivery route, USPS do some bog standard services and some speedy services which are very good, I have had a few chiffers and ebayers who wont post outside of the USA, IMO if you limit your market it will take longer to sell, even if its a top flute by a top maker with a long waiting list, the vat and duty in the Uk would be my main concern these days as it is collected on the doorstep by the postman or courier, if you dont pay the item goes back to depot until you cough up.

sponge

[CranberryDog]

I have sold many items outside the Republic of Texas. I have had no problems. Best, Cyril

[sponge]

If your returning a flute to the UK for what ever reason, and its owned by the Uk seller, you must make it clear on the declaration that it is a returned flute or item, you still insure for the full value, but clearly state that the flute is a return with no charge to the Uk recipient.

other wise customs will sting you and they dont mess around

[SteveB]

Similarly Canada can be complicated.

The US doesn't charge customs on flutes, I believe.

Given that billions of dollars worth of goods that flow back and forth across the Canada/US border each year, I don't see how shipping a flute from the US to Canada could be that complicated. I've had a number of items shipped from the States and have never experienced any difficulty, provided that the package was properly labeled, documented, and addressed by the sender as per the directions provided by USPS, FedEx, or whomever. Flutes shipped from the States into Canada are also not subject to duty, but will be charged the 7% goods and services tax and the applicable provincial sales tax. Some shippers (ie. UPS) will charge you "duties" and "brokerage fees", but that's a money grab on their part, not a fee levied by Canadian government.

[pandscarr]

Had some nightmarish experiences shipping to the UK.

Shipping a flute to the US for repairs / overhaul is a nightmare. I contacted DHL last year and was told that I would need a certificate of sterilization for the wood - despite the fact that the flute was made the previous year in the US. To get round this, I posted it using Royal Mail, but the maximum insurance cover was £500. It did get there and back, but the whole experience would really put me off buying a flute from an American maker in the future.

On the other hand, as has come out in this thread, it's really hard to find the right flute when waiting lists are so long and makers spread worldwide. In the end, I bought a gorgeous flute on ebay a few months ago which is absolutely my holy grail, so my quest is over. Just luck, I guess... and five years of continual "research".

P