What should a flutemaker earn?

[Flutered]

Ah come on, Terrry
even I who only dabbles in wood working projects, know that most of the time is spent setting up equipment, doing test cuts etc. I always figured that it doesn't take much longer to make 5 items against 1, set up once, cut everything simultaneously, assemble ditto. I made up substantial doors for our house this way a while ago.

You couldn't seriously be making flutes on an individual basis? That'd be very inefficient - I suppose you'd need the orders to justify it and you have lots of models and options on your price lists, maybe too many? I mean, look at say Hammy - like Ford you can have any keyless model as long as it's blackwood and his standard design. Well, I'm sure he'll do them in other materials but it illustrates the point.

[Terry McGee]

You couldn't seriously be making flutes on an individual basis?

Uh-oh. 'Fraid so. I occasionally lash out and do two keyless together. Never done more than one keyed flute at a time.

I do make stoppers and caps in sets, and do bulk preparation of wood - rough turning and gun-drilling - because the set up time for these operations is significant. But I enjoy the company of a flute. I also like to constantly review what I'm doing, making little changes, and checking them, and that wouldn't work so well in a bulk setting.

That'd be very inefficient - I suppose you'd need the orders to justify it and you have lots of models and options on your price lists, maybe too many? I mean, look at say Hammy - like Ford you can have any keyless model as long as it's blackwood and his standard design. Well, I'm sure he'll do them in other materials but it illustrates the point.

Yeah, I'm sure it is less efficient making more than one model, but if we all made only the most popular model, there'd be a lot of less-than-happy flute players out there. The introduction of the GLP (Grey Larsen Preferred) has been one of the best things I did - it's made the flute accessible to a lot of players who were really struggling to get "over the hump". And Siccama flutes have been very helpful to some with hand damage or limitations, so that's been important. So I'm happy to be the one "filling in the gaps".

Terry

[Flutered]

Well, fair dues to you - that service calls for a lot of dedication. I see now why your prices are a little higher than other makers.

I guess it keep you interested all the time. I guess some other makers just get stuck in and do batches of their standard designs. When they want a bit of relief, maybe turn to restoration jobs, keys etc.

Mind you, you're lucky at the end of the day that you work at something that you're fascinated with - well, perhaps not lucky because it probably hasn't happened by accident. But you know what I mean.

[jemtheflute]

what crossed my mind is that nowadays there are much more flutemakers than there used to be in those times of nicholson et al.
berti

Around the turn of the millenium, I'd guess we were aware of 20 or so. Jem could probably give us a pretty good reckoning of how many there are now, but I'd guess we're getting on towards 100. There are reportedly 1000 members of the flutemakers email list. If it goes on like this, soon one in ten gentlepersons will be a flutemaker! Terry

Ha! My first thought on reading Berti66's post was "Hardly!" - but then, without knowing the figures, I did in a general sense know what Terry has pointed out.

In the early 1980s I probably only knew of two modern makers by name and reputation - Chris Wilkes and Sam Murray and a little later, maybe George Ormiston and Gilles Lehart. I was also aware of a few period instrument specialists from my interest in listening to baroque music and reading all the bumf on record sleeves. The ITM market was dominated by original antique instruments. For all that Olwell, Terry and Hammy are of similar vintage in terms of when they started, I simply hadn't heard of them or come across their flutes until I got Internet active about 4 years ago.

So, yes, the number of active makers now is hugely more, and has increased significantly in the last 10 years or so. I haven't counted the names in The List - anyone who wishes can easily do so! And of course there are doubtless quite a few who aren't there for one reason or another, not to mention all the amateurs who have a go at a handful of flutes for their own pleasure but aren't in the game commercially (probably accounts for a good few on the flute making e-mail list).

EDIT: OK, I went and did it: The List currently hosts 86 maker entries - some may be defunct, some I know are home to more than one craftsman, e.g Olwells, Von Huene, etc...... So, allowing for omissions and not-yet-knowns, 100 or so seems a fair guess.

The flute was massively "bigger" in the C19th than it is now - though maybe not if we reckon modern Boehm flutes into the current reckoning. The comparison between then and now is not like-for-like as then the wooden conoid simple system was the mainstream popular instrument; now it is a specialist curiosity, even in light of the recent couple of decades ITM boom and aside from other grounds such as population figures and entertainment cultural effects.

On the general topic of this thread, I think that the usual processes of supply and demand are absolutely what counts. Although in about the last 5-10 years new-made flutes have come to dominate the market across the range of quality and equipment-level, the continued existence of many decent antiques will have a holding effect on how high new-made flutes can realistically be priced, and then the much readier availability of well made modern examples from the growing number of highly competent new faces also limits even the top makers with the highest reputations and demand/longest waiting lists. Conversely, there will always be a bottom line for craft made specialist items based on the viable price for covering overheads and making some sort of living.

Ultimately, if you can pick up an original R&R or Pratten for c£2-3k, why would you pay a maker more than that unless he offers something significantly "better" or more in line with your specific personal tastes and requirements....

By way of example, I happen to know Jean-Michel Veillon is currently playing flutes by Stephan Morvan as his first choice. When I saw him at Lorient this summer I commented on this to him because I was astounded he wasn't using his Wilkes flutes - I was present when he took delivery of one of them a few years back. His rejoinder was that he was always seeking for something better, that gave him more of what he wanted..... J-M V has, so far as I know, mostly played new-made flutes all his career - Leharts in the early years, and hasn't tended to use period ones for whatever reasons - hard to get back then, especially in France, no doubt. Now, of course, his position is so exalted that doubtless many makers would give him flutes just for the kudos of being able to say he had one of theirs.......

[talasiga]

.......But I enjoy the company of a flute
........

This sounds like love and doing a thing out of love attracts the original meaning of amateur. It is poetry then that you admit that amateur musicians are what keep you going. If every flute you make is a work of art then, like works of art, it is art lovers who keep the wheels turning.

The greatest music is not played in professional halls of fame but in every hearth where love prevails and the music sings of unique and confidential feelings.

Do not allow your mortgage to gauge the value of your amateur pursuit.


chanelling the oracle

[Loren]

$80,000 + (U.S.) net profit is quite doable provided one has worked out how to effectively do small scale production, and assuming one is willing to work 45-60 hours a week.

This would be using Terry's retail number, less an additional $200 off the profit side per instrument for additional expenses. Total output of 100 flutes per year, with zero drop in instrument quality. One could actually turn out quite a few more flutes (just assuming all keyless here for the sake of simplicity with the numbers), however finding more buyers per calendar year might prove challenging.......

Just to be clear, I am not talking theory here, this is from actual experience with my previous employer.

What happened to your shop help Terry?

Loren

[azw]

I was wondering when Loren would drop by! It's good to hear your perspective.

[Loren]

I don't visit C&F much any more, but I did just happen to stop by, oddly enough, to see what, if anything was happing with flute prices here on the list these days, particularly in light of the current economy etc.

I should also add, although I think it's been mentioned, that flutemaking for most wood flute makers seems to be largely a lifestyle choice. I don't think many wooden flute makers work 50 weeks a year, nor would I guess that many average even 30 hours a week in the shop. Unlike modern flutemakers who typically work a more or less 40 hour weeks and 48-50 weeks a year.


FYI, starting entry level pay for would be flute makers (zero or little experience) seems to run in the $8-15 an hour range.



Loren

[StephenR]

I'm late to this discussion, but I thought I would add something.

I don't make flutes, but I do work in a niche craft that takes years of study and practice. As a lettering artist and type designer, my experience is probably similar in many respects. Making a descent living requires hard work, dedication and love of the work, and just as importantly– gaining a reputation. For most artists and craftspersons the latter is where we fall short due to being dominant right brainers. I probably fall into that category myself, but have managed to overcome some of this out of necessity.

I was fortunate to find a full-time job doing what I love. Currently I'm planning to make the leap to going freelance. Its a real leap of faith in these economic times, but I think any artist/craftsperson with sufficient love of their work can do the same. So hang in there flutemakers.

Stephen

[AnthonyBeers]

Hang in there Mr. McGee,

I would not call anyone who takes the risks and capital costs involved with stepping out and being self employed an amature, this is by definition a professional and in your case a craftsman (where the love comes in). People in this world probably don't get what they deserve (subjective and complicated) but the can usually get what they are worth (the worth of thier product), and hopefully what they need. Usually this kind of thing comes down to marketing. There was a good artical about this recently in the Old Saw, the journal of the Guild of New Hampshire Woodworkers. I suspect you are doing a pretty good job at that area already, I love reading your articals on you website, and know you have recordings and appear at music events. If you have a waiting list you can conceivably increase your prices there is a break even point though I don't know how to estimate it.

I am watching the price of Grain go up here in Mozambique at an alarming rate. Curently 20L of feild corn for 10 USD killer for a subsitence farmer who can't grow enough to ensure his food security for the year. Humans are creative we will make it somehow.


any way thanks for all the help you have given me through your website, I'm current non customer, but when I am in the market for a good flute your name will certainly come to mind.

[Terry McGee]

What happened to your shop help Terry?

Loren

Had to let them go due to the combined effects of the economic slowdown and the gross manipulation of the AUD-USD exchange rate. To illustrate that last point, the rate had climbed from around 0.5 to 0.98 over the last 10 years or so, but once the bubble burst, it plummeted to 0.6 in the course of less than three months. It was all smoke and mirrors. Hopefully the current G20 discussions will put in place processes that will prevent that level of market manipulation in future.

Good thing for my two workers is that they both walked immediately into better paying jobs (not flutemaking!). They both enjoyed their time with us and learned many new skills.

Even better, I'm now full time back in the workshop, instead of being shared between workshop and office. Much more fun for this self-indulgent little black duck!

It was very helpful though having the staff during the period we were designing the new house and workshop, having them built, travelling down to the coast to monitor progress, packing up, moving, re-establishing the workshop, and getting the backlog down from well over two years down to about 7 months (for a keyed flute).

It was also a useful discipline in terms of improving processes and tooling. When you work by yourself, it's tempting to "get by", doing things the hard way, rather than investing a bit of time in making better tools to do things the easy way, which is usually also the right way. So now my processes are fully thought through and documented, with all the tools and jigs required made and conveniently located beside each machine. So my own productivity is much improved, and the end product better for it.

It's good that my productivity is much improved, because I'm also enjoying spending more and more time on each flute doing the fine stuff (voicing and tuning). I'm also spending a lot of time on flute acoustics research, which is throwing up some fascinating stuff which I expect will be of value to us all when I get it done. So, all in all, a great time to be making flutes, if not a great economy for selling them in!

Terry

[Casey Burns]

I have to vent here....

You know? What a flute maker earns could soon be a moot point, unless people continue to order flutes from us flutemakers. Pretty soon what a flute maker will be earning will be much less than what we need to live on, much less keep our workshops supplied with the materials we need, if the current ugly trends continue. Some of the other flute makers and other instrument makers I talk to are reporting a major slowdown in orders.

None of our woods come more or less ready to use - so one has to invest in boxwood, blackwood, mopane etc. "futures" in order to have these. In real terms this means having to stock up on a several years' worth supply of these woods. This takes money away from, say, that dental appointment that just crept up on you - if you really want to save your embouchure! Its nice to make enough that one can affort to capitalize one's business in this way. I couldn't for many years and was simply fortunate to live near one of the best wood suppliers for this endeavor.

Lately it has been a gradual multiyear effort - such that if I need to I can coast for a year and still have enough materials on hand for a few year's worth of flute making. But for a few sickly moments, it would have been handy to have money to spend on the rather exotic pharmaceuticals my naturopath prescribed for me, instead of it tied up in a big pile of mopane.

The next few years will be a delicate balance. My daughter is off at art college, we're facing increased health insurance bills as Nancy and I get older, all of my health care for Lyme Disease (this uses up about 1/3 of my potential shop time) is not at all covered and is all paid out of pocket (see the film "Under our Skin" and you will understand why), and everything is getting very expensive as we enter the Great Depression.

I don't think we flute makers will get a bailout for the flute making industry - no matter how vital this is to the world's economy. I think in relative terms, most of the flute makers on this board are probably earning net less than most of our clients and many of the people chatting here.

Frankly I find discussing what us flute makers should earn here slightly offensive, as if we are of the same ilk as AIG Executives off on their next taxpayer-dailout-funded junket. All of us have bootstrapped our own businesses up from nothing and what we make is a sign of success and pride in what we have accomplished. Asking what we "should" earns carries with it some implied baggage. Such as why do our flutes cost more than so and so can afford? Are we charging too much? My basic principal is what the market can afford, even if it excludes some people. Also, how much I want to charge for my time doing something that is commonly a chore. Long hours at the lathe or bench are no longer romantic to me. Instead, my back gets sore!

Comparison between a Flutemaker and one of these Wall Street executives: We are widget producers. We are producing items in our own countries, not outsourcing. We have produced jobs of long duration and careers of a lifetime. We haven't caused the economies of the world to go belly up. Our material needs do not threaten the biosphere. Unlike the Wall Street exeutives, we produce items of lasting value that appreciate with age. They have produced debts that are imploding and dragging the world's economies down with it.

So give us flute makers a break! And order a flute today!

[Flutered]

I we produce items of lasting value that appreciate with age..... So give us flute makers a break! And order a flute today!

Ah! but perhaps these are mutually exclusive Given a small enough market of people who might play wooden flute then you go make quality instruments that'll last generations with care, maybe there are just too many flutes out there now. I have 3 - I can only play one at a time and couldn't justify any more unless something really attractive came up!! But then I'd have to sell some of the others and not sure if it's that easy to find buyers at the right price these days.

[Casey Burns]

There probably is an ongoing "Flute Bubble" that has popped like houses - judging by the number of people here with former cases of Flute Acquisition Disorder. In economic terms the market is "overbought" so now everyone is selling. Until the next shortage. Then we won't be able to make them fast enough. Fellow flute makers: start preparing now!!!!!

Back in the early 80s when I started out, the only flutes available were antique ones and flutes from a few obscure makers. What was most commonly available were the cheap antiques - stuff by obscure 19th century makers such as Rudall, Boosey, Prowse. Stuff that nobody would be interested in, especially today. I was told by one music shop owner and a flute player himself that I'd be lucky to sell a few hundred instruments in my lifetime. The Internet wasn't up then and so the news got out by word of mouth or by specific marketing. In the mid 80s I took a trip across the country visiting folk music stores, and got my flutes spread out that way. It was also a way to test the marketing efforts of my competitors and the only flutes I saw commonly were Ralph Sweet's and occasionally, Michael Copelands.

But now the Internet expands our markets worldwide - and the world economy can certainly support more and more flute makers. I am still selling flutes, indicating that we haven't fully saturated the interest out there or marketed to every corner of the planet.

[sbfluter]

I always thought flutemaking, like other crafts, was something people did on the side. Maybe fill in the gaps with a paid job, or be retired and living on your retirement money. I didn't think anybody did it as a sole income, except maybe for Patrick Olwell whose flutes you have to wait forever for.

I like my beautiful flute too much to buy another. Since I got it I have never coveted anyone else's flute. I'm sorry to be such a drag on the economy.