Drilling C nat Thumb Hole

[Pipe Bender]

All in all, I would say that TWJCalc results indicate that a 5 mm hole placed half way between the top two holes (~10 mm up from the second hole) is a safe bet to work as intended for Cnat (at least for the two whistles tested to date). I'll try TWJCalc again using inches for the Burke and see if the hole sizes come a little closer.

Although I haven't tried this before I'm banking on the Dremel to be able to give me good holes for the limited amount of drilling I require. Dremel has a couple of reamers as well as grinding stones that should cut and finish the brass without the need for a drill press. Easy to say, but may not be so easy in reality

It just so happens that the 12 inch length of 1/2 inch tubing I picked up appears to be the exact size used on the Burke DBN. So if I become adept at making holes, I may be able to swap barrels and see how it works.

Can any of the algorithms also calculate the 7-D5 hole? For a whistle with an extended barrel having an “extra” low note hole e.g. a low C below D. If not, how does one calculate the 7-D5 hole, position and pipe length?

[Ted]

I have only drilled a few holes in thin brass tubing. I used a wood dowel, with a fairly tight fit, placed inside the tube prior to drilling. I got better holes with less tearing of the tube wall this way.

[DrPhill]

Can any of the algorithms also calculate the 7-D5 hole? For a whistle with an extended barrel having an “extra” low note hole e.g. a low C below D. If not, how does one calculate the 7-D5 hole, position and pipe length?

I dont understand the question..... if you could explain what you are asking in more detail, I will try a crack at the answer..........

[Pipe Bender]

The easiest way to explain a D7 or D+ whistle is by two extracts one from Merlin Whistles and one from Colin Goldie:

Merlin - Soprano D7 Whistles:
"We are proud to be one of the few whistle-makers able to offer Soprano D7 whistles. These, as their name suggests, are Soprano D whistles with a seventh hole. This is offset slightly to facilitate playing using the little finger of the bottom hand and gives the C natural below bottom D, enabling tunes in "modal" keys to be played, which considerably extends the possible repertoire of the player. The tune below is in the key of D Mixolydian and, without the bottom C natural, could only be played using the upper registers, which loses the lovely low "dropping" effect of the last notes: ......"

Goldie - Soprano D with bottom C:
"This is a whistle I also make on request. It plays like a normal high D with an extra hole for the bottom C played by the little finger. This can be helpful for tunes that need the C below bottom D. To make one for you I also need to know if you play left or right handed."

And the're also made by Busman Whistles, Erle Bartlett (Syn whistles) and Jubilee Music Instruments.

Ted - I found a few dowels that should help with "drilling".

[DrPhill]

I am not sure that I understand how that works.

With all the fingers on you get which note? D or Cnat?

If it is D I cannot understand how venting a hole further up gives you a lower note (Cnat).

So I will assume that the bell note is Cnat and that the scale for the whistle is:
Cnat D E F# A B C#

If that is so, then you can do this with a downloaded version of TWJCalc. You need to create a new scale pattern (2,2,2,1,2,2,2) and start the whistle on Cnat (C5 in the drop down list).

My apologies if I have misunderstood.......

[Pipe Bender]

Using TWJCalc pointed out the ambiguity in verbal labels between speaking of a note as produced by an open hole and speaking of a note as a finger position. This clearly can become confusing.

Your assumption is correct, the bell note is Cnat with Cnat D E F# G A B C# available notes. All else being equal, my understanding is that the only difference between a regular D and a D7 is that the D7 has an extended barrel with the Cnat hole added i.e. all other hole sizes and positions remain the same as the regular D. (As yet this is not a certainty.)

From observation on what's offered, it would seem that having an extended barrel for a D7 works better on somewhat wider bores rather than the very narrow bores.

If that is so, then you can do this with a downloaded version of TWJCalc. You need to create a new scale pattern (2,2,2,1,2,2,2) and start the whistle on Cnat (C5 in the drop down list).

This is good to know. If my foray into hole drilling is successful, I would also like to try making a couple of D7 barrels for the C5 note with the thumbhole for the C6 note. At that time I will no doubt have questions on utilizing the downloaded TWJCalc (as Hans is doing at the present moment).

[Pipe Bender]

If that is so, then you can do this with a downloaded version of TWJCalc. You need to create a new scale pattern (2,2,2,1,2,2,2) and start the whistle on Cnat (C5 in the drop down list).

If a "Major BLF" scale is 2,2,2,1,2,2,2 (BLF for Bottom Little Finger) then would a "Major BLF Plus" scale be 2,2,2,1,2,2,1*,1?

The bottom hole on a D7 whistle is often offset. I'm guessing at about 30 degrees from center.

[DrPhill]

Seems logical to me. BLF seems a good name too. I will probably use that........

The offset is purely cosmetic, unless someone tells me that hole orientation affects tone/frequency somehow.

I intend to add a Scale Pattern Editor to 1.10 before I release it. That should make it easier.
to define scale patterns. If there is enough need I could build the new patterns in, but I would plead for someone to explain them in the correct terms. Would the MajorPlus include the phrase 'flattened seventh' in preference to C natural for example?

[Pipe Bender]

Yes I thought BLF would be good - no ambiguity.

I intend to add a Scale Pattern Editor to 1.10 before I release it. That should make it easier.
to define scale patterns.

A Scale Pattern Editor would be great. So far I've had no luck in creating a new .spn file, but I have no doubt it's just me and my PC.

Would the MajorPlus include the phrase 'flattened seventh' in preference to C natural for example?

Since the TB-Thumb hole and the BLF can be added to whistles of any key (if these mods work on one of my D whistles I'll be trying it on a C whistle as well), something other than Cnat might be better. On the other hand, since the D whistle is universal its use is still a good example because everyone automatically relates to it. I guess this would depend somewhat on space which is definitely limited for any drop down menus. And on the third hand, if anyone is getting into this, most of these people would have an inkling as to what 'flattened 7th' meant - even me (but it's only a very small inkling ).

[DrPhill]

'BLF' is now in Whistle Calculator version 2. There is a preview version, but no download for the full version yet.....

Whistle with a base note that is not the lowest note...... whatever next?

[Pipe Bender]

'BLF' is now in Whistle Calculator version 2. There is a preview version, but no download for the full version yet.....

WOW. This is amazing

I'll be away for most of the Christmas Holidays and will start to drill a few thumbholes on my low-end whistles after New Year's. Once that is successful (hopefully), I'll be trying to make two MajorBLFplus barrels, one to put on a spare Feadog C mouthpiece for a D7 and one to put on a Mack Hoover Blacktop for a C7 with thumbholes. Around that time I'll be giving your new preview version a good test.

Whistle with a base note that is not the lowest note...... whatever next?

I think you're safe. There is nothing much left that I would consider reasonably popular that I know about unless you want to try for a fully chromatic one

I want to thank you for your dedicated effort in making these calculations so accessible.

Merry Christmas!

[DrPhill]

I want to thank you for your dedicated effort in making these calculations so accessible.

That's nice of you to say. I hope it helps people out.

• * It's a small 'give back' for all the help that I have received on this forum. Folk here are kind and patient, and there is little else I can pay back their kindness with.
  * I like a challenge, and I am learning some obscure things about whistles and music. There are some fun programming challenges in there too.
  * Its a far better use of my skills than making web servers or stuff to make the financial merry-go-round spin faster.

[Pipe Bender]

I don't know what makes the "HB-Flutomat" different, but by far it is the closest to the reality of the Feadog. The Calculated Pipe Length is, however, a surprising 10mm less that the other two.
[Edit:] The measured length from the foot to the middle of the window is about 272mm - a very close match to the HB-Flutomat's Calculated Pipe Length!

The above has a thumb-hole with a 5mm hole giving distances between the 2nd and top holes of 7 and 12mm. Reducing the hole diameter to 4.5mm moves the thumb-hole position up to 9 and 11mm i.e. closer to the middle. Does anyone know if reducing the size of the hole to 4.5 from 5mm would have any negative impact? i.e. what does one lose in going to smaller holes or is 4.5 still ok?

I've "drilled" a few test holes in some brass tubing using my Dremel (actually a Craftsman rotary tool) and the results are good. (Using a sharpened 3" nail for a center punch, one small twist drill for a pilot hole, a 1/8" cone shaped reamer cutter, followed by little of a 1/4" cone shaped reamer cutter, and finished with a cone shaped grinding stone and/or polisher. At present since I don't have any drill-press arrangement, holes are done horizontally on a desk with a little wooden jig for stability.)

[hans]

I don't know what makes the "HB-Flutomat" different, but by far it is the closest to the reality of the Feadog. The Calculated Pipe Length is, however, a surprising 10mm less that the other two.
[Edit:] The measured length from the foot to the middle of the window is about 272mm - a very close match to the HB-Flutomat's Calculated Pipe Length!

I made changes to the Flutomat formulas calculating the lengths for window and end of the tube corrections, so the calculated whistle model fits better with real whistles. The end correction factor is increased (I use 0.5*bore, not 0.3*bore), which affects all hole locations, making them smaller by the same amount (less distance measured from the foot end). The window or embouchure correction is a very difficult one, as it is quite a large value. It only affects the window/embouchure position, i.e its distance from the foot end. If you use a slide, errors can usually be compensated. This window correction depends on the size (width/length) of the window, but also on its depth(wall height at the window), and perhaps some other factors.

Phill picked up my suggestions and created with it the 'HB Flutomat' algorythm of TWJCalc.

The above has a thumb-hole with a 5mm hole giving distances between the 2nd and top holes of 7 and 12mm. Reducing the hole diameter to 4.5mm moves the thumb-hole position up to 9 and 11mm i.e. closer to the middle. Does anyone know if reducing the size of the hole to 4.5 from 5mm would have any negative impact? i.e. what does one loose in going to smaller holes or is 4.5 still ok?

4.5 mm should work okay. I would not go any smaller though.
But it is no necessary to place the thumb hole absolutely spot on between hole 1 and 2. Place it as you like it (and adjust its diameter).

[Pipe Bender]

First attempt at adding a Cnat thumb-hole is a success! Nice clean hole added to a Feadog D (black paint on brass).

I'm using a tuner app on my computer plus a little Korg CA-1 tuner and I must say the tuning on this whistle varies a lot. In going from G to A to B to D some notes are flat and others sharp. It's not consistent. And the C# and Cnat with cross-fingering are bizarre.

For the Cnat thumb-hole I aimed for a 5mm hole 7.9mm up from the 2nd hole. I ended up finishing with a 6.24mm hole at 131.4. Since the thumb-hole is 1.2mm larger that predicted, I will try moving the hole more towards the middle on the next whistle.

[Edit:] Completed thumb-holes on a Freeman Blackbird D (6.15mm hole at 133.2mm),a Dixon Brass Trad in D (6.0mm hole 135.3), and a Freeman Mellow Dog (6.37mm hole at 135.2). Tuning these was easier than the Feadog had been.