Intonation and tone

[benhall.1]

You ITM players want a dark and reedy tone? Well, a Boehm flute can do that to perfection, and much more.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SeqWduZOkDw

Despite the excellent playing by all, I don't hear a simple system flute.

Nice stuff, as always, from Joanie. But Joanie's Joanie. And I agree, still no woody machine apparent.

[Akiba]

In my experience, it's a lot easier to play Irish music on a simple flute than a Boehm flute, mainly due to the f# fingering. On a simple flute, D scale is the same as C scale on Boehm. On my Boehm, I like playing Irish tunes in C. Also, in order to play Irish well on a Boehm, I think you need a very good flute with great action and balance, perfect pads. A really good Boehm costs thousands $. I have an excellent Yamaha student model (the 200AD) that cost $500 new; it's the flute I use in the classical duets link below. I love it, but it's not quite good enough for me to think about playing Irish on it full time. Does great for the off keys (G minor, D minor, C), but D is hard--try playing Green Mountain on a Boehm with all the f# rolls and you'll see what I mean. Also, I now have a hard time loving the tone of any metal flute; wood just sounds so much better, richer, more authentic.

OK, but this seems to be denying something Cork said earlier (mean the last sentence). Also pricewise,
it's easy enough to have thousands of dollars in simple system flutes in different keys. And long
waits to get' em. Why not go out today and get a good Boehm instead? It can do anything....
We're serious musicians, many of us.

Joannie et al deal with the F#, apparently.

Jim, are you implying I'm not a serious musician?

I'm not saying one CAN'T play ITM on the Boehm; I just think it's harder. Thus, few pros play a Boehm in ITM; Joannie, et al, is the exception, not the rule.

If a beginner asks me which flute to play, I'd recommend the wooden keyless simple flute if he/she wants to concentrate on ITM. If he wants to play other styles as well as ITM, I'd say go with the Boehm.

Regarding tone, I'm not a big fan of Joannie's tone or any ITM Boehm player. Their tone is tinny, metalic, odd, off compared to their wood playing colleagues.

One other minor factor (perhaps a major factor to some) is that to keep a Boehm flute in pristine condition, the condition necessary for playing ITM, one needs to overhaul the flute every 3-5 years (or sooner) at a cost of around $500.

[benhall.1]

If a beginner asks me which flute to play, I'd recommend the wooden keyless simple flute if he/she wants to concentrate on ITM. If he wants to play other styles as well as ITM, I'd say go with the Boehm.

Wait a minute! I want to play trad. I want to play other styles as well as trad. But I'm b*****ed if I'm giving up my 8-key wooden chaps. Stuff the keyless and the typewriters. (Though I may succumb to the occasional typewriter eventually. )

[jim stone]

In my experience, it's a lot easier to play Irish music on a simple flute than a Boehm flute, mainly due to the f# fingering. On a simple flute, D scale is the same as C scale on Boehm. On my Boehm, I like playing Irish tunes in C. Also, in order to play Irish well on a Boehm, I think you need a very good flute with great action and balance, perfect pads. A really good Boehm costs thousands $. I have an excellent Yamaha student model (the 200AD) that cost $500 new; it's the flute I use in the classical duets link below. I love it, but it's not quite good enough for me to think about playing Irish on it full time. Does great for the off keys (G minor, D minor, C), but D is hard--try playing Green Mountain on a Boehm with all the f# rolls and you'll see what I mean. Also, I now have a hard time loving the tone of any metal flute; wood just sounds so much better, richer, more authentic.

OK, but this seems to be denying something Cork said earlier (mean the last sentence). Also pricewise,
it's easy enough to have thousands of dollars in simple system flutes in different keys. And long
waits to get' em. Why not go out today and get a good Boehm instead? It can do anything....
We're serious musicians, many of us.

Joannie et al deal with the F#, apparently.

Jim, are you implying I'm not a serious musician?

No, of course not.

[Akiba]

If a beginner asks me which flute to play, I'd recommend the wooden keyless simple flute if he/she wants to concentrate on ITM. If he wants to play other styles as well as ITM, I'd say go with the Boehm.

Wait a minute! I want to play trad. I want to play other styles as well as trad. But I'm b*****ed if I'm giving up my 8-key wooden chaps. Stuff the keyless and the typewriters. (Though I may succumb to the occasional typewriter eventually. )

Hey, more power to ya'. I'd love to have a keyed flute. Just can't afford one.

What's great about the Boehm is playing in the flat key signatures, keys found often in classical, jazz, e.g. Bflat, Eflat, Aflat, Dflat. Seems to me those key signatures are horrendous on the simple 8-key--another reason I'd recommend the Boehm to those more interested in the other genres.

[an seanduine]

Dare I venture an opinion here? Why not.
It's clear that someone like Sir James Galway has the tremendous 'chops' to wring some astonishing effects from a Boehm flute. And he was one of first premier players to popularlize the so called Cooper scale. And, he has had the extreme luxury of acquiring and playing a variety of gold and heavy alloy flutes.
But, as earlier in this thread it was pointed out, the Cooper, and Brannen-Deveau scaled flutes are aimed at an equal tempered scale. Of necessity these flutes will tend toward a particular mix of harmonics. It is only with great skill and application you can drag these blends of harmonics toward the mix already abundant and available to a conical flute.
There is also the very nature of Irish Music. It is at its core, Modal in nature. And, if you give any credence to the theories advance by Henebry, not even in parallel with standard European scales, much like the scale of the Scot's piob mhor. This moves ITM even a little further away from modern Boehm flutes.
In another thread, much was made of June MacCormack's tone.
Her tone is, to my ear, very dark and velvety. . .not so much hard and dark. And certainly not a tone I have readily heard produced by any Boehm flute player.
For my money a well designed and well built conic, wooden flute suits my ear and understanding of ITM better than any Boehm flute. Naturally, it falls in line with what Jem has said about aesthetics.

YMMV
Bob

[benhall.1]

What's great about the Boehm is playing in the flat key signatures, keys found often in classical, jazz, e.g. Bflat, Eflat, Aflat, Dflat. Seems to me those key signatures are horrendous on the simple 8-key--another reason I'd recommend the Boehm to those more interested in the other genres.

Well, B flat major and G minor - and even C minor - seem OK to me on an 8-key. I haven't got as far E flat major yet. But how hard can it be?

[s1m0n]

After all, how did simple system flute makers for the most part get put out of business about a hundred years ago?

Volume.

[I.D.10-t]

Volume.

dB or production?

[Denny]

db and demand?

[I.D.10-t]

As a side note "flat foot" syndrome and the debate surrounding the low D seems to be a related conversation that points to trying to play one note. C natural seems a close second as far as a single note that has received much attention as to how to play it in tune and with volume on the simple system flute, this seems true to me even when there is a CNat key available.

[s1m0n]

Volume.

dB or production?

Vintage wind players tend to focus on varying 19c orchestral pitch standards, but that's nothing like the most significant sound change in that era. The shift from 432 to 440, even to 450 and back was something that 90% of the audience would have been incapable of even detecting, as long as everyone was in tune.

What anyone at all could hear, however, was the massive rise in volume that happened over the century. Music became more democratic, which meant bigger halls. Better science (Boehm), materials (steel strings), and new instrument designs (Adolph Saxe) were all devoted to the cause of getting a whole lot louder. Which musicians and orchestras duly did.

Greater volume was the Boehm's killer app, and it's why makers and players all abandoned simple system flutes. If you hire wooden flautists, you'll need three to be heard over the newly steel-strung violin section. (And all that fat vibrato.) On the other hand, if you hire musicians who know how to use the newfangled metal flutes, you can get by with two.

[benhall.1]

Steel strings louder, eh? Assuming you mean instruments like the violin, I can answer that one. Having used gut strings most of my life, I switched to steel strings for a couple of years. After those two years of frustration, lack of responsiveness and feeble tone, I switched back - to gut. Gut strings are a VAST amount louder than any steel strings on the market.

But your general point about music getting louder is, of course, true. Culminating in the true goal of all decent music: Grand Funk Railroad.

[Denny]

I've danced ta that.



I was a lot younger

[s1m0n]

Having used gut strings most of my life, I switched to steel strings for a couple of years. After those two years of frustration, lack of responsiveness and feeble tone, I switched back - to gut. Gut strings are a VAST amount louder than any steel strings on the market.

Are they made of real guts?