Fiddle tunes

[Kevin L. Rietmann]

I don't believe that is true at all.

You mean you have not encountered players who eschew the "new stuff"? Really?

I've read that in the old days some composers were bashful about revealing that their latest tune was something of their own creation, as people wouldn't take them seriously. But I've never encountered that myself, and as Peter lives in a town which is the Irish music equivalent of Nashville for C&W I'm going to guess he's probably got a broader range of experience here.

Some "composers" could use a bit of editorial input, or worse. Lots of "new" tunes seem to me little more than - probably unconscious - bits of plagarism. But at least those have melodies.

[Kevin L. Rietmann]

I've encountered it, but I think it's not maybe quite overly common.

"suitable for the pipes" was in quotes so that it would be obvious that it was meant to encompass the whole of the original discussion, and hypothesis, that the majority of irish traditional music stems, or was heavily influenced by, the pipes. I don't think your research showed anything, really, except to I guess prove the point that the ground rules for determining if 'pipes caused the "core repertoire"' need to be much more clearly defined first.

Which isn't going to happen, sorry, I'm not publishing a doctoral thesis here. I'm just relating some of the enormous piles of cruft I've piled up in my memory about what actual researchers have discovered, and passing it along. Breathnach and O'Neill and Donnelly documented how the pipes were by far the most popular instrument in the old days, with an 8 million strong populace pre-famine that would give you an awful lot of fellows squeezing away. You have that anecdote/factoid, not necessarily indicative of much but when combined with what you find in collections and early recordings to me it points to the pipes having the largest influence on the core/early repertoire of the music by far, unless you think fluters and whistlers wrote all this stuff while the pipers just twiddle their thumbs. If fiddlers had been given their way like they did in Scotland the music would be a lot more chanter unfriendly - like Scottish music is, and like so many modern tunes are. I don't think any composer from the really old days is known by name except pipers too - Jackson, and was it Keating who composed the Fox Chase? Jackson had his own book.

There are plenty of other pre-O'Neill collections to work with too, if you want to delve further into these matters. If written out as ABCs you could get a handle on the primacy of key signatures at least. But I'm not sure if that's been done much - Ryan's has been rendered in ABC, at least. And someone may have actually published a paper on this. The tune structure issue is a bit more elusive. You could simply compile all the indexes and take it for granted that "Haste to the Wedding" is the usual jig in D and thus good for the pipes, and look at the tunes that aren't warhorses like that one and see if any patterns emerge - lack of notes below D, no jarring interval leaps - that would suggest the tune in question is suitable for the pipes, or composed by a piper, etc. For what that's worth.

Most of those pre-1845 pipers were professional musicians, too. Reg Hall wrote about how instrumental music making actually only really began to take off among the population at large in the late 19th century when cheap instruments began to become available, before then it was largely the province of experts. This bit of detail is from the liner notes of Reg's compilation CDs on the Topic label, particularly the Round the House one. Dunno if others have corroborated what he has to say there.

Editing to add that there are two pieces of data that I think are worth noting, regarding MofI:
1. Edward Cronin was the original scribe, not James O'Neill. There's some discussion of this in the literature, so it's pretty hard to pinpoint who to accurately blame.
2. The key signatures are attempts to accurately capture the traditional intonation used by some of the sources, so looking at both MofI and DMI is educational (especially with the sound examples that are now readily available to compare to), and I think often they're not so much "wrong" as simply unsuited to capturing what was actually happening.

In The Scribe it's pointed out that a lot of fiddlers would play a G# where nowadays it's standard to play a G, Ballinsloe Fair is the example used I think, that was an excellent observation from Caoimhín, and would explain some of the oddities in these books, I agree.

[Mr.Gumby]

You mean you have not encountered players who eschew the "new stuff"? Really?

Well, there are several reasons why people would avoid 'new' tunes. There's a whole range of tunes that do not begin to sound like traditional tunes and people would avoid them because they perhaps don't enjoy the form.

But that's a completely different story, even allowing fora bit of hyperbole thrown in for effect, from what you said:

if a composer's name can be attached to a tune, it must be avoided for its lack of obvious puredroppiness. As if the majority of a piper's repertoire must (and should) somehow spring (anonymously) from circa 1790-1820.

A good tune will be taken up, no matter how new and how wellknown the composer.

I recall going over my Martin Rochford tapes during the late eighties. Martin was considered a great source of 'old tunes' and rare tunes at the time. And he was. But during my trawls through some of the outposts of his repertoire I came to realise his reason for playing tunes was not the ages or pedigree of the tunes but the quality of them. In fact I found his most celebrated party pieces were all (relatively) new compositions and came from Junior Crehan, Ed Reavey, Seán Ryan, Paddy O Brien, Paddy Fahey, Frank McCollum, Larry Redican, Bobby Casey, Paddy Canny, Breandan McGlinchey, Tommy Coen and other composers who were, essentially, all his contemporaries. This opened my eyes to traditional music not being about old tunes at all. It's about getting and playing the good tunes.

I don't think this has changed, I hear tunes played all the time by the composers I mentioned above and many put together by people who are now playing, people of my own generation and people of younger generations.

So no, in general I don't believe there are many people avoiding 'new' tunes at all, quite the contrary. I believe musicians in general are trying to expand their repertoire and that can come from old sources, printed or recorded, or from newly composed material. It doesn't really matter, you take them where you find them. But in general, a good tune will be recognised as one and will be taken up with a vengeance.

And if there are people eschewing new tunes just because they are new, I don't believe for a second it's a widespread trend or even an undercurrent.

[TheSilverSpear]

There tends to be an undercurrent (especially among pipers) where, if a composer's name can be attached to a tune, it must be avoided for its lack of obvious puredroppiness. As if the majority of a piper's repertoire must (and should) somehow spring (anonymously) from circa 1790-1820. It's a pity, in these folk are missing out on some truly great music. Much of it brilliant on the pipes.

I have only encountered Mr. Pure Drop as a straw man on internet discussion boards; never met him in a real life session.

[ennischanter]

For some time I have always shown interest in composing classical music, and have thought of doing so for the pipes. I can read music okay, rudiments are my trouble in regards of ITM. What do you think?



Maybe we should start composing more tunes for pipes! Or find a way to expand it's pitch range.

[geoff wooff]

For some time I have always shown interest in composing classical music, and have thought of doing so for the pipes. I can read music okay, rudiments are my trouble in regards of ITM. What do you think?



Maybe we should start composing more tunes for pipes! Or find a way to expand it's pitch range.

What do you actually mean by " expand it's pitch range "?
Perhaps the number of different pitches it is made in ? Like having a consort of sizes as in a String Quartet or Soprano,Alto, Tennor and Baritone Sax ?

Or do you refer to the range of notes on a chanter ?

[Steampacket]

"I have only encountered Mr. Pure Drop as a straw man on internet discussion boards; never met him in a real life session." SilverSpear.

Emily I believe we have both played in a session in McLaughlin's (Ocean View), and another session in 2011 during Willie Week

[tommykleen]

And if there are people eschewing new tunes just because they are new, I don't believe for a second it's a widespread trend or even an undercurrent.

Well, our observations are coming from quite different samples here. County Clare is a good deal different from County Center of North America. I'm not saying it's a widespread trend, or undercurrent, but it exists. And the point is that some great tunes are passed up because of it. I'm not making that up. But to each his/her own path. We make the music we choose.

[Kevin L. Rietmann]

A chanter that could go down to low C and still be played tight would be handy. Some kind of popping valve apparatus that would close the end of the bore? See, even adding one note leads to utter confusion. You'd have to retool everything, different bore, the acoustics would be thrown for a loop.

I was showing some fellows how you can use the C on the bass reg to expand the chanter's range - the rest is true of all the notes on the reg, of course, but it's mostly slow tunes the C would be good for - March of the King of Laoise was what I demonstrated this with, Denis Brooks pointed out that this tune was originally for the pastoral pipes, after the foot joint was removed to make the union pipes chanter that C went up an octave. Richard Henebry mentioned in passing in his Handbook about using C on the bass reg for Rakish Paddy. Maybe with enough careful practice we could get the hang of using that note all the time.

My, uh, accordion repair guy was showing a box he'd built. What are ordinarily mechanical linkages for changing the number of voices you hear he'd replaced with radio servos, or some such. How about something like that for the bass reg? You could attach the buttons to control the notes on the chanter. A man can dream!

[Steampacket]

Finally some rules regarding traditional Irish music:
http://www.thedronenews.org/#!ORDER-RES ... bd3759ee1d

[Mr.Gumby]

A chanter that could go down to low C and still be played tight would be handy. Some kind of popping valve apparatus that would close the end of the bore? See, even adding one note leads to utter confusion. You'd have to retool everything, different bore, the acoustics would be thrown for a loop.

You are aware of this yoke aren't you?

[KM]

The solo pipers all seem to record the same old same old, at least the more trad oriented ones, who are the only types I bother to buy recordings of...

I agree i hate to buy a piping album only to find it I may as well just have put the Ennis CD back on. Same tunes recorded over and over. Doesn't make sense when there are thousands of tunes out there.
I noticed quite a few references to Reavey in this thread. I've just learnt a few Ed Reavey tunes then discovered they were very confusingly similar to some other tunes I play. I wonder which came 1st. They are all great tunes anyhow.


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[Mr.Gumby]

In Maria Holiohan's thesis on Paddy Fahy's music the relation between Fahy's music and that of Ed Reavey is remarked upon. The similarities between Never was piping so gay and Paddy Fahy #3 are discussed. Fahy was composing before he became aware of Reavey's music and nr 3 is an early composition that came into being before Fahy was familiar with Reavey's tune. Once he heard Reavey's he noticed the similarities and at times played the two tunes together.

[Brus]

Finally some rules regarding traditional Irish music:
http://www.thedronenews.org/#!ORDER-RES ... bd3759ee1d

The page had a link to a story "MusiciansUnsure Whether It's the 'Derry Hornpipe' or 'Londonderry Hornpipe"".

They need to hang out with balladeers. Does anyone ever sing "I Wish I Was Back Home in Londonderry"? I didn't think so.

[Mr.Gumby]

The page had a link to a story "MusiciansUnsure Whether It's the 'Derry Hornpipe' or 'Londonderry Hornpipe"".

They need to hang out with balladeers. Does anyone ever sing "I Wish I Was Back Home in Londonderry"? I didn't t

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