Hard core?

[PhilD]

Thanks Mr G for those wonderful recordings, really great to hear them (and download them).

Have I got this wrong? Is the term "Hard Core" being here defined here as spirited, non-professional solo players, playing traditional tunes in their homes? If so, I'm hard core!!

If you look at other musical genres, isn't it the stuff that pushes musical boundaries, for example free form jazz, that is considered hard core, because it challenges the idea of melody, harmony, and structure.
If you look at ITM in that light, I'd argue that Lunasa, or anyone that dares to play Trad accompanied by a Synth is far more hard core.

The examples that Mr Gumby provided are of traditional music played in the traditional setting. The only hard core thing about them is that they are field recordings, but pretty great ones to my ear.

Modern players who only learned from recordings probably aren't really part of the tradition,

Slightly off topic, but I don't agree with this notion that you have to marry into the tradition, or have Irish ancestry somewhere in your family tree to be part of the tradition.
Regardless where I learn a folk tune from, the act of learning and remembering it now makes me now part of that tradition in my book, especially if I then in turn pass that tune on to someone else. My version of the tune may not have the bloodline of a tune learnt from so and so, of small town, Ireland, who learnt it from... well you get the idea. I just dislike it when walls are erected around things that should be open to everyone. Ok, over reacting. Rant over.

[NicoMoreno]

Hi Phil,

I agree that you don't have to marry into the tradition, or be Irish (although I can pass as of Irish descent, I'm not at all). I'm sorry my post made it seem that was its point; in fact the point was that old recordings are great, but you can't only get your music from recordings. I do believe that to be part of the tradition, you have to be part of the tradition... and if you only ever learn tunes (and your music) from recordings then you probably aren't. Please note, I keep saying "probably" for a reason. I think it's pretty difficult to keep yourself completely isolated from traditional musicians nowadays. By the way, I should also add that when I said "married into the tradition here", I was referring to marrying into the community of Irish musicians in and around Detroit.

Regarding the term "hard core", it's not a term I would use myself. Brus brought it up, and I've carried on using his terminology to relate to what he's trying to understand. That said, if you think of hard core music as being something that pushes boundaries, then in a way you could say that this "hard core" or "pure drop" traditional music is pretty hard core compared to popular, rock, jazz, classical, or "western" music, precisely because it challenges mainstream cultural ideas of harmony (tunes are generally modal and melody driven, rather than chord or harmonic procession based), melody (often, especially when you get out of band/group settings, the tuning of the notes leaves the scale, key, mode, etc ambiguous or nebulous), and structure (how many pop tunes have phrasing and rhythm like jigs, slip jigs, polkas, slides, flings, or even reels?)

It could be argued that Lunasa is less hard core with respect to pop / rock / etc because it employs more elements of those styles and makes it easier to understand and digest. That said, from a point of view of the "center" of the tradition, it can also be argued as being more hard core because it does push the boundaries of Irish traditional music. I suppose it's all about perspective!

[PhilD]

I didn't mean to sound like I was having a go at you Nico.

if you think of hard core music as being something that pushes boundaries, then in a way you could say that this "hard core" or "pure drop" traditional music is pretty hard core compared to popular, rock, jazz, classical, or "western" music,

Yeah I'd agree, that's definitely true if your outside looking into the fish bowl that is ITM. Trying to grapple with the notion of what "hard core" would even mean from inside the bowl is slightly different. I have to say I don't like the term myself, and I think traditional music is a little immune to the notion anyway. Because it is a tradition there is an inherent stasis that keeps it from changing/expanding to the point where it would have a "hard core". There is traditional music, and then there is traditional music played by the native population in its traditional setting. Is that more hard core?

[Mr.Gumby]

I am not sure I want to turn this into a discussion on the nature of the things you may call 'tradition'. Everybody can find their own way into this music. I think people and places, the life and culture, the handing down and the links between past, present and future musicians are at the core of it and that immersion is the key to unlocking it. Anyone can approach it in their own way though and see what they'll find.

This thread is best kept for just having a look at some (recordings of) musicianers that most of you wouldn't have much access to. Maybe look at it from a different perspective: this is not free jazz, musicians in these clips represent the 'hard core' of the tradition, it's core values if you like. And if you accept that point of view, it becomes easier to see people like for example Martin Rochford and Paddy Canny, from the inside, have probably pushed the envelope more and will have a more lasting influence than Lunasa will ever have.



[edit] there's been a bit of cross posting before I got this posted. But I'll leave it at this.

[ytliek]

This thread is best kept for just having a look at some (recordings of) musicianers that most of you wouldn't have much access to. Maybe look at it from a different perspective: this is not free jazz, musicians in these clips represent the 'hard core' of the tradition, it's core values if you like. And if you accept that point of view, it becomes easier to see people like for example Martin Rochford and Paddy Canny, from the inside, have probably pushed the envelope more and will have a more lasting influence than Lunasa will ever have.

That would be fine with me, continued postings of the lesser/never mentioned musicians in the spirit of tradition. Spoon fed or mother load appreciated any which way it comes. Thank you.

[NicoMoreno]

Agreed with both Mr G and ytielk. The clips are very much appreciated, and definitely those players, and people like Willie Clancy, have definitely pushed boundaries (possibly arguable different ones that people like Lunasa).

[Mr.Gumby]

You know, that whole 'tradition' and 'innovation' vs 'stasis' debate has played out here a few times in the past and has mostly ended in misunderstanding and acrimony.


I mentioned Martin Rochford earlier. Martin is a musician, piper, fiddler, whistleplayer, whose music I hold very dear. I have spent many hours in his kitchen in Bodyke and especially his fiddleplaying and outlook on music changed the way I think about music and indeed my life.




Martin developed a sound on the fiddle that is still making it's way around the world. He had very strong opinions on what was right and wrong in music but assuming that his grounding in his local area and tradition meant his music was in stasis couldn't be further from the truth. In fact he loved the Bothy Band at the time (and they in turn used a lot of his music in their recordings and Keenan, Molloy and Burke were all frequent visitors to the house).

He also loved Tommy Potts' take on things, to an extend, and here he takes one of Potts' tunes, which he learned during one of Potts' frequent visits to East Clare, that in itself is a rigorous and re-working in the typical Potts way of the Julia Delaney as it appears in O'Neill's collection. Martin however took Potts' tune and made it his own and giving it's turn a reading that bears very much the Rochford stamp. A far cry from the sessions around the world who have learned the Bothy Band take (essentially Potts') on the tune only to endlessly rehash it as received.

Julia Delaney - Martin Rochford (fiddle)

I recorded this in 1989 in Martin's kitchen.

[PhilD]

You know, that whole 'tradition' and 'innovation' vs 'stasis' debate has played out here a few times in the past and has mostly ended in misunderstanding and acrimony...
...Martin developed a sound on the fiddle that is still making it's way around the world. He had very strong opinions on what was right and wrong in music but assuming that his grounding in his local area and tradition meant his music was in stasis couldn't be further from the truth.

I was not inferring musical stagnation in anyway when I used the word stasis.

[ytliek]

I mentioned Martin Rochford earlier. Martin is a musician, piper, fiddler, whistleplayer, whose music I hold very dear. I have spent many hours in his kitchen in Bodyke and especially his fiddleplaying and outlook on music changed the way I think about music and indeed my life.

I recorded this in 1989 in Martin's kitchen.

That's why these personal recordings are so valuable... the kitchen setting or house concert where only the very few people present get the full impact of the music up close and personal. Often, new music/tunes/phrases only shared amongst friends. Its a "moment" preserved and cherished by those in attendance, a blessing. Your sharing of these tunes is a broader blessing in itself, especially when you give a little background info to the recording and experience. And the tradition streams this way and that and people become valued.

[Mr.Gumby]

I was not inferring musical stagnation in anyway when I used the word stasis.

Sorry about that. I see your point now. Past discussions here almost invariably assumed tradition = stagnant while equaling everything else with innovation. I admit carrying a bit of baggage from those days and probably read too much of that into your post.

Regardless where I learn a folk tune from, the act of learning and remembering it now makes me now part of that tradition in my book, especially if I then in turn pass that tune on to someone else

I think there's more to 'tradition' and being part of it than just playing tunes and handing them on. Lifting a tune in isolation is still that, in isolation, disconnected from the community. And that's not about erecting walls.
But that's maybe for another time and place.

That's why these personal recordings are so valuable... the kitchen setting or house concert where only the very few people present get the full impact of the music up close and personal. Often, new music/tunes/phrases only shared amongst friends. Its a "moment" preserved and cherished by those in attendance, a blessing. Your sharing of these tunes is a broader blessing in itself, especially when you give a little background info to the recording and experience. And the tradition streams this way and that and people become valued.

Don't get carried away now, they're just a few clips . Seriously though, it IS important to have that stuff.

House concerts are pretty much a US event. We don't have them here. This is more similar to 'going on a ceili', visiting a friend or neighbour and entertaining eachother with a few tunes over buckets of tea and mountains of sandwiches. I suppose I was lucky people like Rochford liked to hear my pipes and let me in.

There was one instant in Feakle, maybe 1998, we managed to coax him to play a few tunes on my wife's fiddle (which he also played in the pic above) but he turned the tables on me and had me play for hours getting his old friends in to listen. I got some lovely pictures of himself and Johnny Malley that way, Martin gesturing and telling jokes and Johnny with only two teeth left and a comb over looking it was hit by a hurricane. Brilliant.

[NicoMoreno]

I just realized I didn't directly reply to you, Phil - no worries, I didn't think you were having a go at me, I just wanted to make sure my point was clearer!

I think that there is traditional music played by its native population in a variety of settings. House concerts may be primarily an american thing, but they're a pretty standard (... bordering on traditional? ) way to have concerts these days. In Ireland you have "Tunes in a Church" and other smaller venues, which I think are somewhat comparable. One of the nice things is that irish musicians tend to have tunes after house concerts, so you get the performance aspect, followed by the sharing, socializing, communal aspect. In the US, we also have the kitchen (or dining room) sessions, aka "going on a ceili"; I've had many many great nights hanging out with friends, playing music for ourselves, drinking, socializing, talking, etc etc. It may look a bit different (after all, the world is a bit different almost 30 years later), but it's the same concept. I think ultimately the only definitive definition that includes all the permutations of what the core of irish traditional music is, is "solo, unaccompanied music {played by a traditional musician}" (obviously this is a somewhat circular argument.)

Thanks again for sharing Mr. Gumby.

[david_h]

Is sharing with others, in person, also essential to the definition ? Without that it would come to an end (and what Mr Gumby is sharing would be history)

[Mr.Gumby]

Passing on yes, that's essential. However, I don't think you should take sharing for granted or assume things will be handed to you on a plate.

There are plenty of stories about musicians with great repertoires of unusual tunes that they took to their graves because they didn't want anyone to have their best tunes.

While we wee on the subject of Martin Rochford: Martin had a great story about Johnny Allen who was a fiddler from East Clare around the first half of the previous century (I do seem to remember he lived into the second half but let's say he had his heyday earlier). Anyway, Allen met Francis O'Neill when the Chief visited Feakle and gave him tunes, which you can recognise by their local names : Maid of Feakle, Humours of Scariff, Humours of Ayle House, Cooleen Bridge, Tuamgraney Castle, Maids of Tulla and all of those (and Johnny Allen's reel, obviously). Allen was extremely secretive about his best tunes though and made sure he didn't play them when there was anyone around who could lift them easily. He had a habit though of sitting by the fireplace at night and play his fiddle and the local lads found that the music traveled up the chimney so they could hear it outside.
The lads with the best memories were sent to hide outside Allen's house and learn off the tunes he played. That worked well until Allen heard on of the tunes played at a fair. He became very suspicious after that and checked the garden and the bushes around the house from then on before he'd play. On one of these patrols he was badly beaten by the Black & Tans and as Martin said 'that stopped him going out for a while altogether'.

[ytliek]

House concerts are pretty much a US event. We don't have them here. This is more similar to 'going on a ceili', visiting a friend or neighbour and entertaining each other with a few tunes over buckets of tea and mountains of sandwiches. I suppose I was lucky people like Rochford liked to hear my pipes and let me in.

Yes, house concerts occur fairly regularly here in the US. I recently had the opportunity to listen to two US born Irish-Americans, Mattie Connolly (uilleann pipes) and Tim Quinn (fiddle & mandolin). Mattie Connolly as a young boy left US and grew up in the Scotstown area of Co Monaghan in the midst of a very musical family. He chose to play the pipes and one of the many highlights of Mattie's musical career came at the 1980 Fleadh Cheoil in Buncranna Co Donegal where he won the senior all Ireland uilleann pipe championship.

My point is Mattie mentioned there were many house concerts, mostly immigration farewell parties where family and friends would gather to share a few last tunes. Mattie stated that these tunes were the personal hardcore types the people departing would take with them as family favorites holding special memories. Or celebrations of special events. These tunes were not played in public nor sessions or commercialized just intimately passed on. I realize that the term hardcore can have multiple connotations and the one spoken of here isn't the only one. I now have a whole new understanding of what hardcore really means. Thanks for the hardcore thread.



As for Tim Quinn there... that's another story for a different day.

[Brus]

There are plenty of stories about musicians with great repertoires of unusual tunes that they took to their graves because they didn't want anyone to have their best tunes.

Can the tunes be exhumed?

On one of these patrols he was badly beaten by the Black & Tans and as Martin said 'that stopped him going out for a while altogether'.

The Tans weren't exactly ITM fans, but they were hard-core in their own way ...