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johnkerr
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Re: Flat F#

Post by johnkerr »

mahanpots wrote: I'm not familiar with playing keyed flutes. So, is it common to vent the F# with the F natural key. Is that correct? I played in front of my tuner and see that I have a sharp A as well. And my B is a bit sharp as well. I think I realized this early on in my playing when I first got the flute, but stopped worrying about it. Part of playing acoustic instruments? I know when everyone tunes to an A at a session, my flute is going to be a bit sharp. Also, my ear isn't great as far as hearing whether I'm in tune or not -- my greatest worry at sessions.
It's the nature of simple system flutes that all of the notes will not be perfectly in tune with each other, i.e. if your A tends to run sharp and you tune that note to an A=440 tuner (or an accordion at concert pitch), then your G will end up flat, and probably your F# as well. This is why on the old orchestral flutes, some notes need to be played by venting (opening) one of the lower keys in addition to whatever of the finger holes are opened. I always thought it was the D#(Eb) key that was used by classical players for venting these notes, but I suppose it would also work to vent the F# with the F natural key.

Flutes made by modern makers specifically for use in Irish music often don't have this problem, since the makers will compromise the tuning of notes in the third octave (which we don't play in ITM) in order to improve the tuning of notes in the lower two octaves. However, even on these flutes it's often necessary to lip certain notes up or down a bit in order to get them perfectly in tune. It's also often a good idea (if you can get away with it) to ask the accordion player for a G to tune yourself against rather than an A, since G is a note that has less of an issue with being out of tune with other notes on the flute.

As for playing in tune with the rest of a session, many times that depends on whether the session itself is in tune. Many sessions don't care about being in tune, although they should, which means if you care about whether or not you're in tune you will find that you're always out of tune with some part of the session group. It's like trying to hit a moving target. I'd be willing to bet that if you are finding yourself not being able to get in tune on a regular basis at sessions, it's more the session's fault than it is yours. To train yourself to play better in tune with others, either find a session where you know everyone else is in tune, or play with just one other person, or play along with recordings. (Another hint: If you're trying to play along with a recording and just can't seem to get your flute in tune with it, then they're probably playing in Eb or Bb or C or some other non-concert pitch.)
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Post by jemtheflute »

Michael, all the intonation issues you describe are commonplace to simple-system C19th style flutes to a greater or lesser degree, even to the adjusted, modern, not-quite-copies by the best makers. It's usually best to tune to a G on a tuner or from a fixed-pitch instrument, in my experience. 2nd 8ve G and A are very frequently sharp, as is 1st 8ve A.

It is part of the orthodox fingering of the 5-8 key flute to vent an F key for F# in both 1st and 2nd 8ves and the Eb key usually helps as well, among other ventings. Most trad players don't bother. I do it about 2/3rds of the time myself, but not with full C19th "correct" classical discipline! Most of the "corrected tuning for modern use" modern era flutes (i.e. not the historically accurate in every detail copies) have "better" intonation across the first two octaves but aren't optimised for the third. They tend to have sharper, more nearly accurate unvented F#s - but not all, and even so the compromises involved still leave a tendency to flatness on that note!

I see I'm cross-posting with John Kerr, so apologies if some of this is duplication..... I think I agree with most of his points.

Of course some old flutes have been tweaked as well to "improve" their intonation in the main ITM modes, but that is usually to the detriment of their performance in the 3rd octave and the more remote tonalities, not that most such instruments ever get asked to go there!

John, it is "normal" to vent Eb for most notes except D, but, if you look at period fingering charts, you will see that it is also required to vent either the long or short F as well for F#.

Michael, that is certainly an improved Harvest Home, both articulation and intonation. Da iawn, tres bien, muy bien etc. etc. And the sound is great!
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Post by sbfluter »

The tuning issues is why I won't sit near some people at the session. I cannot hear the tuning issues myself. I don't have perfect pitch. I probably have below-average pitch. So I sit near people who don't get their panties in a bunch if I'm not quite in tune.
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Post by ImNotIrish »

Michael,

nice to hear the Harvest home. Haven't played that tune in ages. I have to agree with Jem's earlier comments. Your second take is indeed more solid.
I wasn't sure about the tounging on the first take either, though I remember doing something similar with the tune. The 'Belfast' is lovely. Must get that one. Keep up the great work. Look forward to hearing more.

Arbo
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Post by sbfluter »

I'm not sure I heard the first or second Harvest Home but it seemed to be missing a phrase I think.

We play that one in our sessions.
~ Diane
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F#flat

Post by mahanpots »

John,

Thanks for the information. I usually do ask for a G when attempting to tune to another musician. But I think I'm with Diane in that I'm below average when it comes to tones. Perhaps that's another thread there.

Lately, I haven't been attending sessions very often. I mostly play with a guitar and cittern/banjo player (mostly guitar), and ocassionally with a fiddler. Usually, it's the guitar player leaning over and telling me, "You need to pull that thing out a little; it's warmed up."

I listened to your clips again, John. Lovely playing. The notes floated around my kitchen tonight as I mashed stewed tomatoes through a sieve for some portabello, roasted poblano pepper tomato soup.

Jem,

I started playing flute 15+ years ago with no musical training at all. My first flute was a bamboo flute; then I upgraded to an old German 8-key flute. Beautiful flute, but I never used with keys except to mess around a little. I got an Olwell flute after getting tired of everyone telling me to get a real Irish flute, and sold the German flute. If I had the money, I'd think about getting a keyed flute, but I'm not sure if I really need or want to.

I am aware of my flute's unique intonation quirks and I try to alter my technique at times to bring certain notes in tune, especially on slower tunes; but most of the time I just let go and play as best as I can.
Thanks again for listening and expressing your experience of my playing.

I appreciate anyone's comments on my playing. What a great opportunitiy for feedback. Thank you. The next-best-thing to sitting down with an accomplished player. Perhaps even better in some ways. I know you have to be careful about who or what you listen to.

I'd love to hear from some more tunes.

Sorry for the delay in posting this, but I'm watching some old clips of the Johnny Cash show. Eric Clapton is jamming with Johnny Cash and Carl Perkins right now. Wow!



Michael

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Post by jemtheflute »

Just listened to John Kerr's clips - totally agree with Michael - really lovely, especially the hornpipes. Thanks, John.

Michael, apart from having been at it longer, my musical history isn't so different from yours! I'm not trying to push anyone towards keyed flutes - though personally I prefer them. As for what is a "proper" Irish flute, as has been discussed elsewhere, there is a historical argument to say it should be the German 8-key as those were what were cheaply available in the main era of Irish adoption of the flute! The modern obsession with the big fat Pratten sound is just that - modern! (I'm not saying it's a bad thing though.) Ditto the adoption of keyless flutes which is really a post 1980 development. Traditions are not static, of course - would die if so. Anyway, keyed flutes still have intonation problems even if one always uses all the correct ventings - and I'm not that assiduous, nor is my own intonation as good as I'd wish. In any case, the tuning issues of individual flutes show in different ways in different contexts - when a particular phrase pattern in a particular key or mode exposes them. That I think is why your flute showed it in Harvest Home but not so noticeably in the other tunes.

Diane, BTW, Michael's Harvest Home wasn't missing any phrases - it had its full complement of bars to each section and all its repeats, both recordings. I wonder if you were perhaps expecting the very common B music variation that Michael didn't play? May just be a case of mind's ear familiarity with a particular setting.

Here's my take on it, plus it's more-or-less traditional partner, The Boys of Bluehill, played on my mid C19th 6-key F Flute (family heirloom, maker's stamps deliberately erased as it was probably illicitly "demobbed" from the Army!) - and yes, I think there are some intonation issues apparent! I'm also a bit fluffy and unfocussed embouchure-wise - 1st thing in the morning and not much warmed up, sorry...... I think you may also be able to hear a neighbour's power tool of some kind in the background. Why the F flute? I just fancied the excuse to play it - it doesn't get a lot of use, and it has a grand sound. Apologies if anyone wants to play along! One of the things I'm enjoying about this thread recently is listening to people's different takes on the same tune and contributing mine for comparison, especially when it makes me revive something I don't often play.
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Post by sbfluter »

Yes, you are right. It isn't missing any parts. I guess because it was played a little differently from what I've heard it just sounded that way to me.

The F flute is nice.

I won't be posting my own rendition of Harvest Home. It's too hard for me.

Good job you all!
~ Diane
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Post by mahanpots »

Thanks for sharing those tunes, Jem. I liked the variation in Harvest Home in the B section, something I think I heard "Fiddlin' Al" of Seagrove, NC, do.
I've got it now. eAA fAA gAA fAA instead of e2A f2A....

Nice playing. I like the sound of that F flute, too. I was practicing some polkas to post, but then I got into trying a variation, and then I thought I'd wait until I got that variation down. You ever heard of The Finnish Polka and the Tralee Gael? Bmin. into Em I think.

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Post by sbfluter »

Here's a different version of it that is posted in the Traditional Strings forum in the 78s sticky topic.

http://www.archive.org/details/MichaelC ... arvestHome
~ Diane
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Post by jemtheflute »

Thanks for the Coleman link Diane - fascinating stuff.
BTW, I think you under-estimate yourself/misjudge the difficulty of Harvest Home - it is viewed as a rather hackneyed piece, generally to be avoided at sessions (of the "better" sort, at any rate), precisely because it is fairly much a beginners' tune. I mostly think of it as a "silly" tune to mess about with - but not today - I was suitably serious when I recorded it this-morning!

There is nothing very technically challenging in the basic tune - I've heard you play things I'd say were harder. It is (like a great many hornpipes) almost technical exercise stuff for arpeggio, scale, "eyebrow" and step-wise phrases/passages plus some easy pedal point, all of which can be played at a nice steady pace, dotted or straight rhythm as your whim takes you. It's in D, home key with no funny fingerings or difficult finger changes to work in. It is because of its simplicity that it is easy to make variations to - and necessary to do so to make it musically satisfying. (The more curmudgeonly might say that that particular tune has no hope of achieving what I just wrote!) It was one of the first half dozen folk tunes I ever learnt. Even my siblings picked up whistles and learnt it when they didn't play them otherwise (sis = oboe, bro = cello). We all used to rattle it off at breakneck speed just to see who could get through it fastest with all the notes in. I taught it to all three of my kids too. My mother banned it, and to this day if anyone visiting her plays it, they'd better look out!

Michael, FWIW, those triple tongued pedal figures are more-or-less part of most "standard" versions of Harvest Home (viz Diane's Coleman link) to some extent or other, as is the "rocking motion" varition efd c#dB ABG F#GE in the run down part of the B music.
I don't think I know The Finnish Polka - not by name, anyway. Depending on your source, it seems quite likely that it is a Finnish Polka the title of which, if any, wasn't known to the person who brought it into an ITM context. Tralee Gaol/Jail is a very well known mainstream repertory tune. I'll look forward to hearing them.
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variations and "nasty" tunes

Post by mahanpots »

Jem,

so that would be e(3AAA f(3AAA G(3AAA....

I tried it and that's not so easy to do. Plus the variation in the run down in the B part -- that'll take some practice too. Thanks for the information.

As far as outdated tunes or such, I remember I started Fanny Power (can I say that here?) years ago, and a fiddler said, "I hate that tune." I had to finish it, but a couple of years later, I played with her and she started the same tune.

I'll know not to strike it up if I make it to Wales for a visit on my way from Ireland to England or vice versa.

Michael
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Re: variations and "nasty" tunes

Post by jemtheflute »

mahanpots wrote:Jem,

so that would be e(3AAA f(3AAA G(3AAA....

I tried it and that's not so easy to do. Plus the variation in the run down in the B part -- that'll take some practice too. Thanks for the information.
No. For bar 3 of the B music, I play as you wrote it before (3eAA (3fAA (3gAA (3fAA, but triple tonguing - tonguing each of the written notes, not tongue e slur to A tongue A etc. as in jigs - of course you can do that here and I do sometimes, but mostly I triple tongue them, and to my mind that is a regular, distinctive feature of this particular tune. In the 1st 2 bars of the B music where it goes e>A (3ABA f>A (3ABA etc. you can go e>A (3AAA f>A (3AAA etc. triple tonguing the A triplet if you wish. I think I did that as one of my variations.
mahanpots wrote:As far as outdated tunes or such, I remember I started Fanny Power (can I say that here?) years ago, and a fiddler said, "I hate that tune." I had to finish it, but a couple of years later, I played with her and she started the same tune.

I'll know not to strike it up if I make it to Wales for a visit on my way from Ireland to England or vice versa.

Michael
Oh, it's not a Welsh thing! Bear in mind that that tune is not particularly Irish - it is common to all the British Isles traditions and is probably either English or Scottish in origin. It is pretty much seen as a naff tune wherever. Incidentally, I believe the O'Carolan tune you mention is actually Fanny Powers with an s - and it's a lovely tune which I enjoy and which does get played at my local session. So, just lately does the Harvest Home/Boys of Bluehill set because I taught it to a pupil who trots it out! Trumpet Hornpipe too - more triple tonguing! They are fun and useful tunes for the early intermediate player, IMO. And of course, like any tune, it's what you make of them that counts. An inspired high level player can often find a way to bring an old war-horse of a tune back to life! The rest of us either eschew such tunes, or chew 'em to death!

Better go now - need to have some dinner before going to the sesh! (It's 19:30 here as I write, sesh at 21:00.)
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Post by mahanpots »

Right, Jem. I stand corrected. I was writing the notes like it was 6/8 time for some reason. I guess when I played that part of the tune, I transposed incorrectly in my head. If you try what I wrote e(3AAA.... Well, it just doesn't make sense.

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Post by sbfluter »

e(3AAA f(3AAA G(3AAA
It's that kind of stuff I find nearly impossible to do. When I get to that part I cannot keep up with the rest of the tune. If I play the rest of the tune at a speed where I can play this part the whole tune sounds awful.

I guess I can pull a "Dinky's Reel" and just not play those As, like I don't for Dinky's reel.

I find all hornpipes sort of hard for some reason. My fingers get tongue-tied, and often on some of the easiest parts. I don't know what it is. Fisher's Hornpipe (and Fisherman's Favorite) used to be my favorites but I just can't play them anymore.
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