The Great and Awesome Flute Youtube Thread

[Peter Duggan]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0-L6i3Pp ... ature=plcp

You've changed your hat, Jim!

[jemtheflute]

I haven't hitherto been overly impressed by what I've heard of Chris Norman's playing (good, but not with a "Wow!" factor for me). But this is quite superb.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BlhwLLQO ... Zzq-xAJ4E=

[Denny]

they do well together

I've really enjoyed their album

[LorenzoFlute]

Superb Jem, Thanks for sharing.
From the same duo, some Telemann:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xg02qSuw ... ure=relmfu

[benhall.1]

Jem and I have had a bit of a "discussion" on FaceBook about the Chris Norman clips. I like the Telemann one, but I think, if only for balance, that someone should counter Jem's "this is quite superb" comment, made about the other clip, with a ... ahem ... different, yes, that's the word ... a different view.

I absolutely hated it. As far as I can see, it proves beyond doubt that neither of them know the first thing about any trad music. What really bothers me is that people who are musical enough to produce the genuinely lovely Telemann clip that Othannen linked to, can be so insensitvie as to produce the completely unmusical - to my ears - parody of trad in the clip that Jem calls "quite superb".

I suppose I ought to say why I don't like it. There are quite a few factors at play in there, although it's a little difficult for me to be completely thorough in any description, since I can't actually listen to the whole thing. I find it painful, and have to turn it off. I've now listened to about 3/4 of it, with different bits at different times, and several times at that, and I blame you, Jem, for the resultant pain in my ears. I hate the sound of that weird fiddle is one thing, and he's playing it with a raucous tone that just grates. (BTW, Jem, what made you think it was an octave fiddle?) Also, what is that "arrangement" about? It's kind of like they've taken something vaguely Baroque and tried to graft it onto something trad. I don't think the graft has taken very well. And what it doesn't sound like, to me, is something trad treated in a Baroque way (which, I suppose, might be interesting, although I still wouldn't see the point). And, over and above that, the rhythm and phrasing are off. They're simply not trad. It's the typical approach of people who really only understand a different idiom. The simultaneous combination of classical phrasing (well, really, Baroque) and classical dynamics, and classical rhythm with trad tunes is the thing that grates most on my ears.

Gosh! that feels better! I'm off to gambol in the Spring sunshine now.

[jemtheflute]

Oooh, he's such a martyr.......

BTW, nothing made me think the fiddle in that clip was an octave one. It isn't. That was in the clip with the pipes, and was labelled as such in the YT blurb. I did tell you he used different kit in the other clips....... For the rest, it'll just have to be differing tastes - have to say I don't really recognise much of your critique - some, but not much.

[benhall.1]

Ah. I obviously got it wrong about which clip you thought used the octave fiddle. Mind you, that thing he's scraping away at there doesn't sound much like a fiddle, so I suppose it would have been an easy mistake to make, in any case.

As for my critique, I would have thought that it's difficult to argue with the factual elements - the rhythm, phrasing, dynamics, tuning, harmonies and tone are all completely different from what would be used by good trad players. That much seems to me to be self-evident. After that, it's a question of whether you like your trad tunes played with non-trad rhythm, non-trad tuning, non-trad arrangements in non-trad harmony with non-trad phrasing and non-trad tone produced by non-trad technique and using non-trad dynamic changes at non-trad places in the tunes. If you do, then I guess it might be "quite superb".

[Denny]

*sigh* I'll come quietly officer

[jemtheflute]

OK, home from work now, bit more time......

Well, I only viewed/listened to each clip twice. I do partly see/agree with what Ben means when he says they don't have a "trad" feel - it isn't "pure drop", for sure. But for me (let's discount the Telemann clip for now) the clips using trad material were very effective. I enjoyed the sounds they make. I like the precision of their articulation and the (musical, not visual - apart from some quite good instrument-playing close-up work, the pseudy visual aspect of these clips is pretty dreadful!) interplay between them, though the fiddler does have some apparent habits when accompanying (rather than tune playing) which I don't find entirely sympathetic - and he also does some IMO very successful stuff.

Norman's tone is really good in the flute clip (allowing for recording tech - the engineering is very good IMO, but doesn't seem to be obviously flattering - and no excessive reverb! ) - better than I've heard before. My previous view of him from limited exposure was that I wasn't smitten (hence had not chosen to explore him more) - clearly technically accomplished, but a bit insipid both tonally and interpretationally and not really getting an effective feel of trad material. Sure, this isn't a particularly trad approach, but it isn't insipid. They are very tight, which I always find impressive, even in genres or styles of music I don't like. I think they build up a good head of steam and drive the set along to an effective climax. The way it builds tension and intensity (not the playing style) reminds a bit of how Martin Hayes builds through sets of reels. My one major criticism is that they perhaps end up going a bit too fast, and that goes for the Hacky Honey clip on pipes too. Not that they can't technically sustain that pace, just it overcooks it for the music.

As for the fiddle(s), although as I said I don't necessarily like/approve of everything the fiddler does in backing mode, I do like the gutsy sounds he makes/the instruments make and how he contributes to the ensemble with Norman's flute/pipes. He is clearly very competent and is choosing to use those instruments and to make those sounds - he could do otherwise. Whilst it may not be the kind of sound Ben chooses to make and likes, I don't think it is "bad" and I certainly don't find it annoying or distressing - as I sometimes find recordings/performances by (allegedly) "pure drop" players who for me really don't play at all well technically (even make horrible noises!), whatever the respect and reverence they may be held in as repositories/exponents of the tradition. Nor does the non-trad-ness of these clips irritate me in the way a good deal of explicitly "cross-over" stuff does.

Also, in the end I don't know enough about the Nova Scotian music which is Norman's native tradition to be able to say whether or not he is playing stylistically within its tradition. I do know he has a life-long involvement in and passion for it, and also for Scottish music in particular. I've heard (not much but) enough Cape Breton and French Canadian music to know that although they use much ITM and STM material, they play it in their own style, not as it would mostly be played by Irish or Scottish players. I know far less about the Scottish tradition and what might be the "right feel" for that than I do about Irish or Welsh music... Certainly these performances don't "feel" like any Irish style. The Telemann does not "feel" (or sound) much like any baroque HIP specialist would play it either (though clearly both players know their stuff about that idiom) - but I do think it is an effective and attractive non-HIP performance, just as one on a modern Bohm flute and modern violin could (just about conceivably) be.

So, maybe Ben and I are less far apart than he thinks, bar the final matter of taste and liking. I have some reservations about the clips/performances - they are not faultless either technically or subjective taste-wise, but on balance I enjoyed them and I do think they are superbly played. The players clearly achieved what they intended to achieve. If listeners don't like all or part of what performers present....... well, that's normal.

[benhall.1]

I promise I'll stop after this ...

... but I don't think you've got what my problem is, Jem. It's not that it doesn't sound Scottish, or Nova Scotian, or even that it doesn't sound trad. It's the chimaera effect of bolting two disparate things together, and not producing a natural-sounding third thing as a product. For me, whether it sounds trad or not is irrelevant. The tunes are recognisably Scottish, and the style is ... well, goodness knows what, but something else, at any rate. The effect seems to me to be like a cut and shunt job with an Aston Martin front end and a Morris Traveller rear.* I can imagine that some other fusion of Scottish with classical (ish) might be fine, but I can see the joins too much in this one.





*Mind, that might make a racy, exciting, yet thoroughly practical, car.

[Denny]

butchers everywhere

[benhall.1]

butchers everywhere

Masterful! Great stuff!

[jemtheflute]

Dunno about butchers - I've no objection in principle/to the concept, but I can't stand that! That probably comes closer to paining me in the way Ben seemingly indulges in than much can...... Clever idea, horrible execution.

As for Ben's last point, I just don't agree that the "third thing product" doesn't work. Works for me...... not for you...... (And vice versa with IA/JT.)

[benhall.1]

Dunno about butchers - I've no objection in principle/to the concept, but I can't stand that! That probably comes closer to paining me in the way Ben seemingly indulges in than much can...... Clever idea, horrible execution.

See, I love that. I could listen to that any day in preference to ... well, most things, tbh. It was great! Can't you hear the greatness in that? I mean, really, truly, great.

[Denny]

*preen*