A sincere question about piping and pipers

A forum about Uilleann (Irish) pipes and the surly people who play them.
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djm
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Post by djm »

Gee, Mark, I can't understand why you're sitting on the fence like this. :D

Actually, I was going to suggest a solution in the other direction. Make a list of pipemakers. Relevent contact info could be added, and then for each maker, create a list of Pro and Con comments, where a buyer could enter ONCE what their experiences have been. Space would be limited to avoid bombast. Then prospective buyers could look in and see, e.g. that maker X has fifty pros and two cons. The cons might have some valuable caveats for future buyers. This would provide some semblance of value. Only people who had actually owned a set would be allowed to enter in the pro or con, or one of each if they had mixed emotions.

I think this is the type of info prospective buyers are combing the threads for, so why not localise it? Make it easy to find. If you build it etc.

djm
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Post by oleorezinator »

Patrick D'Arcy wrote:
Kevin L. Rietmann wrote:_____________.
I'm with Kevin on this one.

PD.
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Royce
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Post by Royce »


Haven't lost a wink. I think you've missed my point. I'm not concerned about pipemakers suing me. I'm concerned about fair play on a forum which I publish. If you get a chance, read my posts in this thread.

Thanks,

Dale
Here's what you actually did write:

"Sometimes the complaints are entirely legitimate responses to particularly nasty critiques and sometimes they are entirely over-reactions to the slightest perceived critique. But, there is very often a kind of nastiness of tone that I don't see anywhere else on these boards. Also, I am forced to conclude that, among pipers, there are lots of people who are particularly prone to threaten litigation...."

Now by "nastiness of tone," would you include phrases like, "If you get a chance, read my posts in this thread."?

A reasonable person would conclude you've been threatened by lawsuits to which I again suggest you not worry about it. I was in fact responding directly to the first post in the thread. You seem to suggest these complainers use a nasty tone in raising their complaints. The way that reads to me is those makers raising complaints with you and threatening to sue you are using a particularly nasty tone against you or those on this forum, often, as you state, over petty perceptions. You also suggest perhaps that harsh criticisms in this forum of these makers is unusual, but your primary emphasis seems directed at those fuming at you and threatening to sue you as "publisher."

Now, you raise the notion of being sued as a publisher in your very first statement on the subject and then when I respond to this clearly stated concern, you suggest I read your posts. By doing so, you seem to take upon the same tone you call into question in the very same paragraph in your instigating post.

That being said, this is the way pipers and a pipe makers are. What doesn't happen in your whistle forums is you wait ten years of begging for delivery, and the six thousand dollar whistle never shows up. Or shows up minus a fipple. So you have to wait around another year for a fipple that plays before you can actually start learning anything. Pipers can't as a community put up with anyone in the business of wasting years of their lives and thousands of their hard-grafted dollars only to deliver unplayable crap. You just can't roll over a couple of years at a pop waiting around for an instrument to play only to find problem after problem with workmanship or playability or simple delivery, and ever learn the instrument in your lifetime. Thus, pipers are patient for years, and then ultimately take the deadbeats out of the game for the sake of the people.

Pipe makers on the other hand, have enjoyed generations of being able to jerk-around the customer and BS their way through the market, like owning water rights in the Mojave desert. Where else are they gonna go? they have chuckled at our expense. Well, now they can go to just the guys who deliver playable instruments rather than beg for a place in line and pay whatever is being demanded and taking whatever is delivered. Furthermore, they can avenge their wrongs and promote the honorable in forums like this. They aren't mute, silenced and humbled like lost sheep hoping the shepherd finds them in time for supper. It isn't a time where anyone who wants to throw some wood on a lathe can just chatter out something vaguely like a set of pipes and be considered an important person.

That's capitalism. That's a free market, and that's the internet. The real source of complaint from most of these makers, is they can no longer control the flow of information about their instruments and their craft. The customer is starting to know better, and forums like this insure that they will and do, and that others are warned against the lazy, the dishonest, and the unreliable. That's good for the instrument, the trade, the music, and it should be one of the things a forum like this is all about.

So I submit that it isn't a lack of "fair play," your complainers are really upset about. It is in fact, that your forum here represents the first time they've been forced to submit to fair play. By the time you read a complaint here about some maker or dealer, the complainant has already invested years of being helplessly jerked around by the party being complained about. In most cases those finally rallying the community here have already had to endure months and years of abuse by those with whom they raise a grievance, made possible only by the fact they they have been for generations previously, quite able to do what they feel, as soon as they feel, as well as they bother, and still get paid for it, and the customer had no way of bringing this to anyone's attention, and thus the maker or dealer of substandard products and services could get away with anything.

Imagine the outrage of those suddenly finding out their incompetence, dishonesty, or disorganization was becoming common knowledge! Nasty? Well it's probably quite a shock to them.

Royce
Last edited by Royce on Tue May 04, 2004 4:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Royce »

djm wrote:Dale, I missed the thread with accusation of drunkenness. Could you repost it? :lol: Just kidding, of course. I don't know where you could easily draw a line. People want to know which makers are recommended, who to stay away from and why.

Obviously, personal attacks on a maker or player should not be tolerated. That would be mean-spirited, and not the sort of information-sharing that we, as a community, are trying to promote. Would it not suffice to privately warn someone when they've crossed the line, or are we becoming too much of a burden on the moderator? There's lots of lively debate here, and I love the great sense of humour of many of the participants. Is there some method you could offer that we could police ourselves?

djm
I suppose I ought to apologize to everyone for anything previously posted by me, because I thought Dale was being a bit jolly and sarcastic, but it appears he's rather serious. What baffles me most is the fact that I have no Idea what he's on about. I think I read one thread about one maker some weeks back and that averages about one, maybe two posts a year about pipe makers who fail to deliver. I also thought somebody else had taken on the role of moderator for this forum, somebody who read it daily and knew something about pipes because Dale didn't or didn't have time.

So I just wonder where the vast gigabytes of slagging-off data is being stored here, because for all the postulating about whether or not there's any decent content here, I seem to have missed all this broadband-busting nastiness about makers that allegedly clogs this forum.

It's a pretty simple situation--just drop that one thread where whoever it is allegedly says whatever maker is a moron hack. And if another one shows up sometime, drop that one too. All I've read lately is forum posts promoting pipe makers mainly.

Royce
Last edited by Royce on Tue May 04, 2004 4:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Dale
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Post by Dale »

Royce wrote:
Now by "nastiness of tone," would you include phrases like, "If you get a chance, read my posts in this thread."?
Not really.

Thanks for your input. I read every word.

Dale
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Post by Kevin Popejoy »

...
Last edited by Kevin Popejoy on Mon May 10, 2004 9:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Jim McGuire »

Need any more help with understanding the difference between whistle players and pipers?

Tom Standeven, R.I.P., was buried with his silver Copeland whistle in his hands. That would never happen with pipes (and Tom did play the pipes) and we have precedent for that too (Canon Goodman's Taylor set)!
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Post by Patrick D'Arcy »

Where is Standeven's grave again? :D

PD.
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Post by djm »

I can dig it (Mod Squad). :D

djm
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Post by Royce »

Jim McGuire wrote:Need any more help with understanding the difference between whistle players and pipers?

Tom Standeven, R.I.P., was buried with his silver Copeland whistle in his hands. That would never happen with pipes (and Tom did play the pipes) and we have precedent for that too (Canon Goodman's Taylor set)!
Well, it might start out with that objective, but by the end of the wake somebody would have convinced the widow the dead piper had sworn an oath to leave the pipes with one or more people, most of whom he'd never met.

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Post by Jim McGuire »

News of the pipes going with a piper would cause a lot of tears and some spontaneous offers to handle the shovel (solo - later, when the grief and crowds have gone).
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Post by Royce »

Kevin Popejoy wrote:
DaleWisely wrote: I read every word.

Dale
OK, now you're just having us on. Can't you see we're trying to have a serious discussion here?

kjp
Wisely must be Finnish or at least Scandinavian. If that's humour it's dry as a piece of salted cod. I think he might be one of the original Leningrad Cowboys--one of the tuba players I think.

If those little digs like "try reading my posts" aren't what he's talking about though, I'm still befuddled about the "nastiness" end of his complaint, concerning this forum, though I'm sure in private email he's read some sizzling stuff. Most musicians I hang with, granted, many pretty accomplished players, have a very comfortable smart-assed social manner that maybe comes across in print pretty harsh, because you don't get the facial and body cues that it's mostly tongue-in-cheek.

I usually read the entire forum daily, or every other day or so, and even in the controversial thread about the pipe maker who shall remain nameless (latest version) I didn't see anything beyond a lot of nudge-nudging and half-serious haranguing, which strikes me as the normal response of a group of pipers even on a good day when they all agree.

All joking aside, I think someone with an interest and knowledge of the pipes could sort this problem out simply by checking daily and riding herd on anything along the "slagging of a maker without any evidence and with a really nasty tone" order. I think if you're going to slag off a maker you ought to have evidence and you ought to do it cheerfully.

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Post by Jim McGuire »

Dale's message only reads to me "It's Dale's playground". Analyzing beyond that would be futile.
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Post by Harry »

"Cheerful slagging"?

Can we all say that we are experts in that field? 'Cheerful' can be very relative to who is giving the 'slagging' and who is taking it, and what people feel is acceptable as 'a slagging'. I know that a lot of the stuff that would have itself passed off here as 'slagging' is a load of puffed up, ignorant bollocks. And there are people here (not pointing any fingers...?) whose ego couldn't take a slagging if it was wrapped in a 500 euro note!

Burnt egos and hard-on displays is what I see more of the time. It's just great for the subject of piping.

(Pardon my Bog-French ladies.)

Regards,

Harry.
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Post by lemonsquash »

Good on ya, boyo.
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