Just intonation, Equal temperament, and Irish flutes...

[skh]

Yes, Clavichords can bend notes a bit, so you can play some kind of vibrato on them. The reason is the mechanics which wikipedia explains better than I could anyway.

Harpsichords cannot bend notes.

Credentials: I played harpsichord for a few years, owned one, studied its mechanics in depth ("erm, how does that fit back in? -- ah, sure..."), did some fine tuning of the mechanics myself, and yes, tuned it myself too.

[jemtheflute]

Thanks for the back-up, Sonja. Amazing what it turns out some of the folk on here have gotten up to in life!

[skh]

I would presume that a clavichordist would have to practice very hard the touch skills to ensure that he played in tune and only bent notes when positively intending to do so!

I don't think you can "tap" a clavichord in tune or into a different temperament the same way we lip a note up or down. A skilled clavichord player can maybe intentionally adjust a third or fifth in the odd emphasized chord, but you can't sit down at a clavichord and decide to play it in equal temperament when it has been tuned to just.

[jemtheflute]

I'm sure you are right, and I didn't mean to imply what you described. Rather I meant that if the player's touch on the keys was uneven, he might press the tangent against a particular string in such a way as to bend the note - out of tune with the rest of the chord. That would be unintentional and unfortunate!

I doubt even a J.S.Bach's incredible brain and keyboard virtuosity would let him systematically adjust intonation in the way Cork suggests, even if it was mechanically possible! But on a clavichord you can bend individual notes and get a vibrato by dint of pressure on the keys. I suppose if you had one string that had gone a bit flat mid-piece you could try to play it sharp by pressing that key harder every time you used it until you had an opportunity to re-tune, much as fiddlers or guitarists try to compensate for a dilatory string, but if it had gone sharp you wouldn't be able to do anything about it. Otherwise, the things previously stated about being stuck with the pre-performance set-up temperament hold as good for the clavichord as for its relatives. It really only cropped up in this discussion because it is the only keyboard chordophone that has any kind of ability to do that kind of pitch variation during performance, not because I thought it could do what Cork was (erroneously) trying to suggest he thought a harpsichord/harpsichordist could do.

[skh]

jem,

I think we agree on all points (in this discussion), sorry if it came across otherwise.

[Cork]

Hello, all,

It's true that I know little about playing piano, harpsicord, and similar instruments, but let me give something of my own background. For instance, when I was young I lived in a rural area, and I lived near a university, which included a music department. Now, unless one is a farmer with things to do all day long, in a rural area one either spends time watching grass grow, or one finds other things to do, to better use their time. For me, I got involved with music, beginning at school, and although I was not a student there, the university, and the numerous music majors there, became my greatest resource.

There were pianos, a couple of harpsicords, and some other, similar instruments, and then there were those people who could play them. Fortunately, perhaps because they too lived in that same rural area and had little else to do, over the years a number of those students were willing to hand a music assignment to a young kid with a flute, and, long story short, I wound up getting a music education, not a formal education, but an education nonetheless.

Yes, pianos can be regulated for volume, but a harpsicord has only one level of volume. In particular, it was demonstrated to me that the tones on a harpsicord (my memory tells me that these were harpsicords) can be bent, by manipulating the finger pressure on the keys, which basically is the reason why that instrument has only one level of volume, as varying the finger pressure to alter the volume would also alter the tuning.

Jem, I apologise for my having been so brusque in my earlier statement.

[skh]

Yes, pianos can be regulated for volume, but a harpsicord has only one level of volume. In particular, it was demonstrated to me that the tones on a harpsicord (my memory tells me that these were harpsicords) can be bent, by manipulating the finger pressure on the keys, which basically is the reason why that instrument has only one level of volume, as varying the finger pressure to alter the volume would also alter the tuning.

They must build different harpsichords in your neck of the woods than in the rest of the world then
I won't repeat what has been extensively explained above, but really, check in a museum, a book, or wikipedia.

[jemtheflute]

Cork, accepted! Indeed, already understood from your other posts. It sounds like you had (at least in the respects you've mentioned) a fortunate up-bringing - both rural and cultured!

It does sound to me as though the experience you describe - and I do not doubt that you had such an experience, only your memory of the details - can only have been with a clavichord, as that is the only instrument capable of what you describe. Memory is a slippery thing! (That is one reason I checked out my content before posting!) Seriously, as Sonja says, take a little surfing time to check out the mechanical details of the instruments in question and then come back to us.
Cheers.
Jem.

[Cork]

...Memory is a slippery thing!..

Lions and tigers and bears, oh my!

Well, I didn't go online. Rather, I did it the old fashioned way; I thought about it, which became a matter of people, places, and events, and to make matters worse I now remember yet another instrument, a spinnet(sp?). Also, just to mention it, I played for several, maybe eight or nine years before I came to the great understanding that pianos et al could be tuned to something other than equal temperament, as my great leap forward!

Harps and clavs and spins, oh my!

That is, in regard to the matter at hand, I am less certain now than before of what I remember, but I did give it a good try. I'll keep at it, but perhaps someday I'll look it up, should all else fail. In my defense, let me say that it's been some 35 years since school time and keyboard instruments, although I have studied with other flute players since then.

While I was at it, however, I also recalled some of the popular tunes of that era (of my own era, not that of a much earlier era, thank you), which then led to a quick review of other, more recent tunes, and, over the past couple of days, one in particular got stuck in my head, a really good groove.

Ah, music!

[jemtheflute]

Hey, Cork, they must have had quite a collection of keyboards at that college! Sounds rather exceptional - you were lucky! Sure, Spinnet is another Renaissance-into-Baroque keyboard - actually it's really just (the English name for) a small harpsichord with the strings running parallel to the keyboard rather than perpendicular to it, and altogether smaller and lighter in construction - and sound. The mechanism, however, is mechanically the same as a harpsichord's, so no bendable notes there either. "Virginals" were another variation on the same theme.

[Cork]

Hey, Cork, they must have had quite a collection of keyboards at that college! Sounds rather exceptional - you were lucky! Sure, Spinnet is another Renaissance-into-Baroque keyboard - actually it's really just (the English name for) a small harpsichord with the strings running parallel to the keyboard rather than perpendicular to it, and altogether smaller and lighter in construction - and sound. The mechanism, however, is mechanically the same as a harpsichord's, so no bendable notes there either. "Virginals" were another variation on the same theme.

Hei, Jem,

As I admitted, I simply cannot recall just what or which stringed instrument could bend its pitch, although I remember playing with same.

It was a well funded university, which included a music department, which had a number of the larger, less portable instruments included in its inventory, while the smaller, more portable instruments were in the individual posession of the students, there.

I've been exploring a really great groove during these past few days.

Ah, music!!

[Kevin L. Rietmann]

Look up clavichord on YouTube if you want to see/hear one in action.

I'd read about them and snooped around in record shops for an LP years ago, was very curious. Finally I found a disc and was a bit surprised to hear something like a rich alive version of the cheap piano sounds I'd heard on digital keyboards...

They are a pleasant sounding instrument but were too underpowered for larger concerts, much like the old flat uilleann pipes or baroque flutes actually.

Another curious thing is that the old pipe organs which used mechanical linkages from the keys to the pipes (tracker action) also are valued for giving the player some control over the sound. When the keys began to simply control motorized/electrical mechanisms that opened the pipes some of this was lost.