Exploring the Negative Generation Urban Legend

[Steve Bliven]

The question 'what is chiff' is another C&F meme--Jerry's clips above can be used to answer the the question swiftly and definitively.

Just so's we're all on the same page, which (or both) are you using as an example of "chiff"?

Thanks and best wishes.

Steve

[Nanohedron]

Anyone remember Googlisms? I found this (amalgamating both "who" and "what"):

Googlism for: chiff

chiff is
chiff is not a defect
chiff is a defect of pipe speech
chiff is manufactured in high
chiff is n the bottom octave; this is typical of these organs
chiff is now very pronounced
chiff is really two people
chiff is also acquiring a buddha
chiff is a small female tabby
chiff is hiding in a bush at ambush wargames
chiff is a marvellous thing
chiff is the consonant that precedes the vowel
chiff is heard at the beginning of each note
chiff is after me
chiff is unwanted and must be reduced
chiff is reflected by
chiff is currently 5 months old and a staffy cross
chiff is so tired of it he wants you to stop
chiff is the consonant that precedes the
chiff is crazy
chiff is an acronym that stands for ?clever
chiff is created by computer simulation
chiff is
chiff is offline
chiff is the consonant that precedes the vowel
chiff is allowed
chiff is derived from specialized microdomains of the plasma membrane
chiff is the little "puffing" or "scraping" sounds that introduce themselves between the notes as you move up and down the
chiff is now ______
chiff is the boundary of heaven and earth
chiff is no longer adjustable
chiff is the sound on the initial attack of the speech that sounds like "ch"
chiff is derived from
chiff is a guy;
chiff is one of those species that i struggle to
chiff is the characteristic attack that a flue pipe has when the air strikes the lip
chiff is unwanted and must be reduced
chiff is an effect tab which is used in con
chiff is prominent
chiff is speaking

[tin tin]

The question 'what is chiff' is another C&F meme--Jerry's clips above can be used to answer the the question swiftly and definitively.

Just so's we're all on the same page, which (or both) are you using as an example of "chiff"?

Thanks and best wishes.

Steve

They both have it, especially the untweaked whistle. Chiff is the transient noise at the very beginning of a note (the 'ch' sound).

[peeplj]

The following are two Generation D's, a blue top and a red top, which I ordered several years ago. Neither are tweaked.

I don't think you'll have trouble telling which one is the "bad" whistle.

http://flutesite.com/samples/badngood.mp3

About a third of the Gens that I have ordered have been like this.

Perhaps there are players that could make even this whistle sound good. However, I am not one of them.


--James

[StevieJ]

It was illuminating to try 24 brand new Generation Ds right out of the box. Of the 24, one whistle was superb. A clear, sweet, easy high octave and a full round solid low octave. Great "action" and good tuning between the octaves. It's Generations like this that I prefer over any other high whistles (save for a really good Feadog Mark One).

If Nico was surprised to find himself agreeing with MTG, I'm probably more surprised to find myself agreeing with PCP - at least everything he says in the post from which this is quoted. Except that I've never tried a Feadog (or anything else) that I like better than those perfect Gens.

I've done exactly this on at least two occasions - tried a couple of dozen Gen Ds straight out of the box and had the same experience. The last time was 10 years ago, mind you, and I don't know what more recent Gens are like.

Maybe you have to be attuned to these perfect ones are like to spot them, or even appreciate them. Anyway, I've certainly done my bit over the years in lamenting the uneven quality of Gens. Certainly don't see this as a myth.

OTOH, going along more with the thrust of Nico/MTG/Mr G, the less than perfect ones can be just fine. (Loosening the head and putting it back on in the right place improves matters immediately.) Once I had a student making a horrid sound from a Gen, and complaining about it, and when I tried it I told her I thought it was a really good one!

[Steve Bliven]

The question 'what is chiff' is another C&F meme--Jerry's clips above can be used to answer the the question swiftly and definitively.

Just so's we're all on the same page, which (or both) are you using as an example of "chiff"?

They both have it, especially the untweaked whistle. Chiff is the transient noise at the very beginning of a note (the 'ch' sound).

Thanks for the clarification. Just wanted to make sure that you weren't suggesting that one had it and the other didn't. I thought they both sounded "chiffy" but hoped for some verification.

Best wishes.

Steve

[Pipe Bender]

The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly.

[red_menace]

I don't care much for 'analysing' soundclips, it is very hard to tell between a player who doesn't blow well and a whistle that's genuinely out of tune. My impression, from listening to the Eb clip, is that it's pretty much a case of the former.

True, but maybe there's merit in comparing the Eb vs the G for a single player. I'm suprised that MT liked the Eb clip, which sounded rather out of tune to me. Whether the out of tuneness is down to the whistle or down to the player is another question...

No, it sounds out of tune to itself to me too, and I'm the one as blew it! The head is jammed all the way on too. The G on that whistle (actual G, bottom 2 holes uncovered) is noticeably flat, blow hard as you like you can't bring it into tune.

Like I said, I'm not the greatest player in the world but I don't think the tuning issues are anything like as bad in the other clip I linked to on a different whistle.

[Jerry Freeman]

The G on that whistle (actual G, bottom 2 holes uncovered) is noticeably flat, blow hard as you like you can't bring it into tune.

This raises the question, what do you mean by "noticeably flat"?

A perfect third is 14 cents flat from an equal tempered third. If you're used to equal temperament, a diatonic instrument that's tuned closer to just intonation will sound flat on the third and sixth compared to equal temperament.

Best wishes,
Jerry

[hoopy mike]

No, it sounds out of tune to itself to me too, and I'm the one as blew it! The head is jammed all the way on too...

The Flutini analysis suggests that the head needs to go on further. I wonder if it might be worth cutting a sliver off the top of the tube with a hacksaw to allow the head to go on slightly further.

I tried filling the cavity with poster putty / blu tack on my Eb Gen last night and was very pleased with the result, but that tweak doesn't seem to work for everyone.

[Mr.Gumby]

I tried filling the cavity with poster putty / blu tack on my Eb Gen last night and was very pleased with the result, but that tweak doesn't seem to work for everyone.

The problem is that thee seems very little agreement about what it is supposed to achieve. Strengthening the low end is the one most quoted but I fail to notice that. Mind you I never have any problem with the strength of the lower end so maybe I just don't notice any difference.

A while ago Jerry said this:

And it does have an effect on the sound. Alan Jones was trying out whistles at the Pipers' Gathering in August. He picked up a D Blackbird I'd been working on, played it and announced, "It's sort of woolly." It sounded woolly to me, as well, and I wondered what was wrong with it. When I picked it up, I saw immediately that I hadn't filled under the windway.

In a minute, with the windway properly filled, Alan tried it again. "Amazing," he said. It definitely makes a difference.

That again is something I do not find. In fact in nearly all backfills I have tried I found the sound was dulled by the fill (something I would tend to call 'woolly' but mileage varies far as the use of fuzzy terminology goes). In fact the first whistle I received from jerry (a proto type Gen tweak) sounded positively dead. He changed the material of the fill after that.

As I said I filled my e flat a while ago and found increased wind noise on some notes quite a lot more. I have since been whittling the material again, playing the whistle for maybe a week and then taking more out, and while the hiss is getting less with each bit I take away, or maybe I should say fewer notes are affected. I still feel the whistle was probably nicer without. It's an old model FWIW, one I bought in 1971.

So what do you find as an improvement?

[red_menace]

The G on that whistle (actual G, bottom 2 holes uncovered) is noticeably flat, blow hard as you like you can't bring it into tune.

This raises the question, what do you mean by "noticeably flat"?

A perfect third is 14 cents flat from an equal tempered third. If you're used to equal temperament, a diatonic instrument that's tuned closer to just intonation will sound flat on the third and sixth compared to equal temperament.

Best wishes,
Jerry

I did piano lessons throughout my childhood, so my ear is pretty much trained to piano tuning. I have one of your whistles in front of me - a Blackbird C - and the E on that sounds very, very slightly flat to my ears but I can blow it into tune. The Gen Eb is much flatter than that on its third

[Jerry Freeman]

I did piano lessons throughout my childhood, so my ear is pretty much trained to piano tuning. I have one of your whistles in front of me - a Blackbird C - and the E on that sounds very, very slightly flat to my ears but I can blow it into tune. The Gen Eb is much flatter than that on its third

I think that's it, then.

The C Blackbird has a Feadog tube. Feadog tubes are closer to equal temperament; Generation tubes are somewhere between just intonation and equal temperament.

Best wishes,
Jerry

[hoopy mike]

I tried filling the cavity with poster putty / blu tack on my Eb Gen last night and was very pleased with the result, but that tweak doesn't seem to work for everyone.

The problem is that thee seems very little agreement about what it is supposed to achieve...
So what do you find as an improvement?

Well, I'm not a big Gen fan, not because of the tone, but because the ones I've played (and I've only played half a dozen - and only one in each key) just don't sound "in tune" to my ears. By "in tune" I mean the same as playing guitar / cornet / piano, so perhaps it's the difference between equal temperament and whatever. But filling the cavity with poster putty on the Eb seemed to fix that for me. I had a similar experience with the Bb, but for me it still isn't the wonderful whistle described by many others here. But now I have a playable Eb whistle, which I'd trust to play with other instruments on stage, so I'm happy with the results of the tweak.

[Jerry Freeman]

I've been thinking quite a lot about MG's comments about filling under the windway.

When he reported the dulling effect a long time ago, I did notice it myself, although only with Generations and not other whistles, and at that time I developed a different material to use. After some time (maybe two years) and after I had further refined the tweaking scheme, I checked again and couldn't hear any difference.

I think it isn't so simple as "yes, filling under the windway makes it duller" or "no, it doesn't make it duller." There are other adjustments that also affect how the windsheet behaves as it transits the space under the voicing window. When I've made those adjustments, I simply don't find any dulling effect from filling under the windway.

I've gotten very positive feedback on whistles I've done, all of which have the windway filled, from numerous top players, including ...

Mary Bergin "I love the F and Bb tweaked Generations; The Blackbirds are exactly what I'm looking for; I'll spread the word back in Ireland,"
Paddy Maloney "The tweaked Generations work for me" (I sent samples of Blackbirds, tweaked Generations and a Mellow Dog),
Vinnie Kilduff,
L.E. McCullough,
John McSherry "I'm touring Europe now with the tweaked C Generation you sent me,"
Joannie Madden,
Sean Smyth (liked the tweaked Generations so much, he took a set for himself and one for his sister),
Kevin Crawford (using them in the studio, uses a tweaked Eb on tour, etc.),
Lawrence Nugent (loves the Blackbirds),
etc.

(I went on quite a bit further, but decided it was excessive and deleted it.)

Best wishes,
Jerry