On a lighter but still Passionate note...

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Lorenzo
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Post by Lorenzo »

Jerry, I always use a great deal of caution when people try to dissuade me from any further or deeper investigation, or any further discussion on a controversial issue. In fact, I'm more prone to head that direction because of it. I've ususally discovered their motives by doing so. The contents of the monster link provide good reason for further discussion, esp for anyone seeking the truth re the historocity of the early Christian church. We know that even the world's greatest scholars don't agree on all these issues, why should we? :D It often appears that vested intersts play a part. One thing we certainly learn from the principled exercise of dissuasion is that not having the sharpest knives around kitchen is usually not the problem in these kind of culinary discussions. So chew your food well, and do the research for them with patience, kindness, and understanding. :wink:

"Although the writings known as the Apocrypha are often not included in Protestant Bibles, they were translated and included in the original King James Bible of 1611, and they are offered here for use by interested readers:"
http://etext.lib.virginia.edu/kjv.browse.html
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Post by U2 »

Walden wrote:It only stands to reason that the Church could not accept every writing which claimed to be Holy Scripture. Only such as were truly inspired could be allowed in the canon.
Walden, Jim, Monster, Jerry, and all, I didn't have time to fully consider all the points made in this thread in detail, so please consider this a general statement with regard to "divine inspiration," a term the religious tradition from which I come, eagerly accept.

Some readily accept that the authors of the books were divinely inspired by God to write them, presumably as guidance for all future people. Regarding the NT specifically: If one accepts the books were, in the original writings, divinely inspired and that he directly intervened to ensure accuracy, then, it’s no stretch to believe he also ensured only inspired works were included in his guidance, and also that future translations were accurate. If one believes in the existence of an omnipotent creator, there’s virtually nothing in theological discussion that remotely compares to that degree of faith.

But, did the writers of the adopted books know they were inspired?
If so, how?
Were they told?
By whom?
They didn’t claim to be divinely inspired.
The authors provided accounts of many miraculous events to demonstrate that this savior was real, fulfilled prophesy, and that they personally witnessed it. But none of the writers, save Paul who spent no time with Christ (and even he doesn’t say he was told to write the books he did), tell of an experience or vision in which the creator appeared to them regarding their writings The omission of monumental testimony about interaction with the creator, from personal experience - universally withheld by all those who now are said to be “inspired” - is not insignificant.

The true beauty of faith is that it doesn’t require proof of everything. But, in New Testament times it wasn’t void of the element of proof either. The accounts we have include Christ proving himself by performing super-natural deeds. Who, what, when , where, how, and why, are elements of miraculous accounts recorded, but no mention of how Mark or John, or any of these writers knew they were ‘inspired.’ The writers didn’t claim to be inspired, that was a claim that came later.
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Jerry Freeman
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Post by Jerry Freeman »

jim stone wrote:Forgive my fussiness, and it's helpful, if one
is going to be critical, to quote the entire
sentence, including ' If I may put the best light
on things...' This was not a bald assertion or
a claim to know but a representation
advertised as erring on the side
of orthodox Christianity.
Sorry, Jim.

I didn't understand what you were trying to convey there; didn't realize which things you were refering to. Reading it more as you intended, it seems more reasonable.

The "antenna up" caution is legitimate, but I think we have to be careful not to overdo it or allow it to mask our preconceptions. The Gospel of Thomas predates that of John, and there are just as many, if not more, reasons for our antenna to go up regarding the contents of the Gospel According to John. Again, reference the interview I posted a link to and the author's writings.

I believe it's appropriate to challenge this idea about private vs public teachings of someone like Jesus or Buddha. Certainly, in many instances, what you're saying is true, that new interpretations would have been advertised as having been taught privately by the original teacher when in fact they were not. However, that doesn't by any means rule out the possibility, or even make it any less likely, that any given teacher might have taught things to his advanced students that weren't widely broadcast to the uninitiated masses. If authoritative sources for information about such advanced or esoteric teachings were available, that would be very significant .

I think it's also important to understand that the kind of scepticism I'm expressing here isn't against the teachings of orthodox Christianity. I believe that the fundamental tenants of Christianity are true, even though there are many elements that evidence indicates may not actually be historically true. I find it especially instructive when devoted Christians (lifelong monks, priests, ministers, etc.) show no dismay whatsoever about the contradictions, and seem quite willing to accept historical evidence that directly contradicts canonized teaching.

Jim has stated what I'm trying to get at in the preceding paragraph better than I could:
The official gospels and accompanying
theology give the crucifixion and the
resurrection extraordinary force and meaning.
God loves us so much that he becomes
incarnate in a man and murdered
brutally (a la Mel) for our sake, so as to save us from
sin and create a new covenant. Reality is
changed forever by it; the resurrection
is now available to everybody, in a way
that simply didn't exist before. Everybody
now has access to the Jewish God.
Also extraordinary meaning is lent to
human suffering.
Let me suggest that the impetus to maximize
the religious meaning of Jesus's story was at work
in Gospel selection (and rejection), too.
I agree with this. As usual, I'm in the "It's not either/or, it's both" camp.

Best wishes,
Jerry
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Jerry Freeman
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Post by Jerry Freeman »

Lorenzo wrote:Jerry, I always use a great deal of caution when people try to dissuade me from any further or deeper investigation, or any further discussion on a controversial issue.
Hi, Larry.

I'm puzzled why you're addressing this to me. I agree with you that there are some intriguing comments in the article Monster posted, and I was trying to encourage more investigation into them.

Best wishes,
Jerry
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Post by Lorenzo »

Sorry Jerry, I was actually supporting your idea of further study, re your post of 1400 hrs., and offering an explanation of why some people might show little interest in your link. Also, when Jim suggested that it's probably best to forget Monster's article and move on, it made me want to look into the matter even further. :wink: -also, a little tongue in cheek there about patience with those who should know better.
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Post by Zubivka »

Confused issue in a confused time.

Some get here in documented theological discussions--for, I suspect, the sole sports of arguing since no-one seems to have managed in any way to alter in any way any other's opinion... Some go with their brains, other with their faith, as it has been the rule for centuries. Basic disagreement on what the "light" in enlightenment is...
Not to say I don't enjoy the passe d'armes, as seen from the tenth row.

Meanwhile, how come the worst subzeroculture movies "stars" of Hollywood get, one to rule a State, and the other pretends to rule the souls?

What's next: some retired bimbo becomes the Union's guru on nuclear strategy?
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Post by jim stone »

About John, this is a pivotal Gospel, plainly,
and it has been viewed with skepticism.
I suspect that it reflects the appreciation
that Christianity isn't going to survive as
a Jewish sect; to survive it must make its way
among the gentiles, large numbers of whom
wanted access to the God of the Torah,
but didn't want to become Jews.
As long as Jesus is merely the Jewish Messiah,
there is little hope of survival; identify
him as a divinity, whose death and resurrection
provide a New Covenant, and there is hope.
It is in John that the Messiah is identified
as divine. I take this to be part of the
evolution of early Christian theology
at least partly in response to Jewish
rejection of Jesus as the Messiah--not
because he was despised but because
the Messiah wasn't supposed to get killed.

I think one fact about Jesus that explains a
great deal is that he thought he was the Messiah;
that's part of the reason he was crucified, for instance.
Also it's likely that he didn't see himself in
military terms, a man who would lead the Jews to
military victory over their oppressors, but
in mystical terms: a man who would sit beside
God at the end of the world and help God
judge men. The Messiah has a special
relation to God; he is an immediate member
of God's family, unlike the rest of us,
God's son. It isn't much of an extention of
this mystical Messianic idea to construe
the Messiah as divine--though maybe this
made more sense to gentiles than to Jews.

One difficulty I have with Gnostic (and other
mystical) interpretations
of Jesus
where Jesus is teaching that we are all of us are God,
the means of salvation are within each of us,
is the considerable tension with the Messianic
tradition. The Messiah turns out to be
merely some sort of inspired teacher, and I
think Jesus saw the Messiah in grander terms.

John looks to me like a continuation and
extention of the Messianic tradition,
precisely in the direction that would have
been needed if Christianity was to survive.
I see this as suggesting, at least, that
John represents evolving Christian
theology, that it's close to the center
of what Christians were thinking,
however controversial it may have
been in its day. The Gnostic stuff seems to be coming
from somewhere else entirely.
Last edited by jim stone on Fri Mar 12, 2004 12:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Lorenzo »

Zubivka...don't worry about us. I think we do this to refresh each others imaginations, to think of things we've never thought, perhaps to go where no man has ever gone... :lol:

This is interesting:

The Lost Saying of Gospel Q
"According to the Two Source Hypothesis accepted by a majority of contemporary scholars, the authors of Matthew and Luke each made use of two different sources: the Gospel of Mark and a non-extant second source termed Q. The siglum Q derives from the German word "Quelle," which means "Source." Q primarily consists of the "double tradition" material, that which is present in both Matthew and Luke but not Mark. However, Q may also contain material that is preserved only by Matthew or only by Luke (called "Sondergut") as well as material that is paralleled in Mark (called Mark/Q overlaps). Although the temptation story and the healing of the centurion's son are usually ascribed to Q, the majority of the material consists of sayings. For this reason, Q is sometimes called the Synoptic Sayings Source or the Sayings Gospel. Some scholars have observed that the Gospel of Thomas and the Q material, as contrasted with the four canonical gospels, are similar in their emphasis on the sayings of Jesus instead of the passion of Jesus."

more- http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/q.html
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Post by Walden »

Lorenzo wrote:Jerry, I always use a great deal of caution when people try to dissuade me from any further or deeper investigation, or any further discussion on a controversial issue. In fact, I'm more prone to head that direction because of it. I've ususally discovered their motives by doing so. The contents of the monster link provide good reason for further discussion, esp for anyone seeking the truth re the historocity of the early Christian church. We know that even the world's greatest scholars don't agree on all these issues, why should we? :D It often appears that vested intersts play a part. One thing we certainly learn from the principled exercise of dissuasion is that not having the sharpest knives around kitchen is usually not the problem in these kind of culinary discussions. So chew your food well, and do the research for them with patience, kindness, and understanding. :wink:

"Although the writings known as the Apocrypha are often not included in Protestant Bibles, they were translated and included in the original King James Bible of 1611, and they are offered here for use by interested readers:"
http://etext.lib.virginia.edu/kjv.browse.html
Yes, the Church of England's position was, "Holy Scriptures containeth all things necessary to salvation: so that whatsoever is not read therein, nor may be proved thereby, is not to be required of any man, that it should be believed as an of the faith, or be thought requisite or necessary to salvation. In the name of Holy Scripture, we do understand those Canonical books of the Old and New testament, of whose authority was never any doubt in the Church.
Of the names and number of the Canonical Books.
Genesis.
Exodus.
Leviticus.
Numbers.
Deuteronomy.
Joshua.
Judges.
Ruth.
The First Book of Samuel.
The Second Book of Samuel.
The First Book of Kings.
The Second Book of Kings.
The First Book of Chronicles.
The Second Book of Chronicles.
The First Book of Esdras.
The Second Book of Esdras.
The Book of Esther.
The Book of Job.
The Psalms.
The Proverbs.
Ecclesiastes, or the Preacher.
Cantica, or Songs of Solomon.
Four Prophets the Greater.
Twelve Prophets the Less.

And the other books (as Hierome saith) the Church doth read for example of life and instruction of manners; but yet doth it not apply them to establish any doctrine; such are these following:
The Third Book of Esdras.
The Fourth Book of Esdras.
The Book of Tobias.
The Book of Judith.
The rest of the Book of Esther.
The Book of Wisdom.
Jesus the Son of Sirach.
Baruch the Prophet.
The Song of the Three Children.
The Story of Susanna.
Of Bel and the Dragon.
The Prayer of Manasses.
The First Book of Maccabees.
The Second Book of Maccabees.

All the books of the New Testament, as they are commonly received, we do receive, and account them canonical" [quoted from Article 6, of the 39 Articles of Religion]

This is why the so-called deuterocanonical books are included in the Authorised Version, but separated unto themselves under the heading, Apocrypha.
Reasonable person
Walden
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Jerry Freeman
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Post by Jerry Freeman »

jim stone wrote:One difficulty I have with Gnostic (and other
mystical) interpretations
of Jesus
where Jesus is teaching that we are all of us are God,
the means of salvation are within each of us,
is the considerable tension with the Messianic
tradition. The Messiah turns out to be
merely some sort of inspired teacher, and I
think Jesus saw the Messiah in grander terms.
Pagels discusses this in some depth in Beyond Belief. It might be worth a read.

Best wishes,
Jerry
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Post by Flyingcursor »

Missing "gospels"?
Lost books of the bible?

A lot of gnostic claptrap my friends. There really is only one way, truth and life.
I'm no longer trying a new posting paradigm
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Post by cowtime »

geek4music wrote:Missing "gospels"?
Lost books of the bible?

A lot of gnostic claptrap my friends. There really is only one way, truth and life.
And in the Gospel of St. John 20:29, the resurected Jesus says -
Thomas, because thou has seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed
"Let low-country intruder approach a cove
And eyes as gray as icicle fangs measure stranger
For size, honesty, and intent."
John Foster West
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Jerry Freeman
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Post by Jerry Freeman »

Lorenzo wrote:... perhaps to go where no man has ever gone...
I'm a Buzz Lightyear fan, myself.

The girls were sitting around the table when one of them said, "Absurdity." Ana, the six year-old, exclaimed, "And beyond!"

Best wishes,
Jerry
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Post by Monster »

Jim Stone wrote


One difficulty I have with Gnostic (and other
mystical) interpretations
of Jesus
where Jesus is teaching that we are all of us are God,
the means of salvation are within each of us,
is the considerable tension with the Messianic
tradition. The Messiah turns out to be
merely some sort of inspired teacher, and I
think Jesus saw the Messiah in grander terms.

Well of course if you take the literalist, orthodox view, this is the case, this seems to be their doctrine, I believe most any modern Catholic, and most any Protestant would go along with what you have stated Jim.

The jest of almost all of my posts is this;from what I can tell the history of Christianity is complex and much of what eventually became known as heresy, (teachings and writings of the Gnostics for example) has either been destroyed or altered. The original meaning of some of the orthodox writings may have been lost, the reason being, is that orthodox dogma became the way to interpret writings that were initially intended to be interpreted in a different fashion. The orthodoxy's entire history of Christianity is therefore called into question.

A spiritual experience, or what some may refer to as spiritual truth, I believe, does not rely on any historical event to make it relevant. I do not call in to question that people have spiritual experiences, but I do question the historical accuracy of claims of literalist Christians. What I wrote earlier in a post about Jesus' death and ascension being a one time only event is surely a concoction of some power hungry people who have been wildly successful at fooling a lot of people for a long long time.

Look at it realistically, wouldn't it be more convincing if God were to send Jesus (or someone) down to Earth on let's say an annual basis, then we could humanely electrocute or give lethal injection or whatever to him or her, then Jack Kevorkian would pronounce said person as deceased. We could then wheel said body off to a public display case where a nice waiting period would occur. Later we could have a dramatic, countdown, 5-4-3-2-1 then said body could jump to life on command, and then we would party with said entity like it was 1999!!

But I'm sure even this would not satisfy many folks, as they would say things like 1) It's the work of the Devil 2) Houdini was better.

Needless to say if there was an all powerful God out there that wanted us to know of their existence we would know it, no doubt. So that brings me to the conclusions that A) There is no all powerful God. B) There is an all powerful God but does not desire to be obvious (and hopefully not devious) C) Something very weird is going on that we do not comprehend in the slightest, but we get along ok not knowing.
Last edited by Monster on Mon Mar 15, 2004 7:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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jim stone
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Post by jim stone »

This business about what's sometimes called
'the problem of the hiddenness of God' has been discussed in
the philosophical literature recently. I do agree.
I really do wish the Old Boy would show his hand,
and it's hard to understand why, if he exists,
he would allow us to wander about wondering
if he does. Certainly enough has happened, between
Darwin and The Holocaust, that people of good
will can be sorely perplexed about God's existence.
He might, therefore, give us something more to go
on.

The kind of responses one gets to this problem are
that if God weren't hidden, we wouldn't really have
a free choice between good and evil, for it would
be too obvious what we must do. I find this
unpersuasive.

None of this demonstrates that God doesn't exist,
obviously; but cumulatively I think it counts against
the plausibility of theism--though not a great deal.

As to scripture, I agree that it certainly appears that
a vision of Christianity developed and became orthodox,
one of several competing visions. So we see the past
through the lense of orthodoxy, just as you say.
Personally I very much wonder what Jesus would
have thought of the Christianity that emerged,
for it seems plain that the Messianic tradition
stopped short of identifying the Messiah
as divine. But I don't think this necessarily
discredits orthodoxy. Looking back through
a glass darkly, it seems to me that
there were ultra-Jewish versions, which could
not have survived, and deeply gentile versions,
that could not have survived (if Christianity
had gone Gnostic, most of us would never have
heard of Christianity).

What the orthodoxy did was thread the needle,
keeping contact with the God of the Torah,
thereby continuing the Old Testament tradition,
yet making that tradition available to
gentiles. The result is one of the most powerful
and beautiful religious visions in history,
a blending of Judaism, paganism, and
I think, Platonism. I'm not a believer, but
I find it extraordinary moving.

Whatever the official doctrine turned out to be,
it would have been significantly imposed on
earlier events by the needs of later centuries.
That's how religions are, generally. Orthodoxy
didn't win out merely due to politics or the
need of the religion to survive, but because
it found an extraordinary meaning in the life
and death of Jesus, something more satisfying
to more people than any other religion in
the world, finally, something as true to what
happened as any after-the-fact
interpretation could be that would mean
something important to millions of people.

I've never been a Christian, so I have no
reservoir of anger that inclines me to bash
Christianity. Reading some of the posts
people write, I think some of you really
went through the wringer! A lot of this stuff
strikes me as Christianity bashing--
suppressed scriptures, power grabbing,
and so on. But you know, obviously there had
to be suppressed scriptures, no matter what
version won out, or there would have been
no religion.

I try to separate my atheism, on the one hand,
from my efforts to understand Christianity,
on the other. I don't see the winning out of
one version over others as a bad thing.
That's how religions are. There were 17 schools
of Buddhism in the decades after the
Buddha's death; the Theravada is the only
one of them that survives. Obviously somebody
in Religious Studies (which is permeated by
'deconstructing' institutions in terms of power
relations, etc.) is going to maintain that this was
a political power grab by monastics, and so on.
I sometimes referee religious studies books for
journals; that's what they mostly say.

But I'm more inclined to try to see what positive
religious teaching the Theravada included, and see
if I can find an explanation for its success in
its religious superiority, its ability to meet
human needs at that time. When I look at Christian orthodoxy
in that light, it isn't hard to see why it
prevailed. Best
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