Chanter design development ideas

[Mike Hulme]

In the UK, at least, we have a very good way of not encouraging frivolous invention. It is called the Patent Office.

Re: the Taylor Brothers; Only one maker is currently offering quad and double bored regulators as far as I know, and that is Chris Bayley.

[islander]

Mr.Gumpy, haven't I already apologised and told you my intention was not to insult you? You however continued by making a negative remark about my reading ability.

I did, and with reason too, by the looks of it.

And you didn't insult me. Your style of advocating your latest brainchild did become very irritating when you started insulting other people for no good reason at all. Which was my point all along, wasn't it?

And there it all came back to comprehensive reading.

Well then, I'm sorry I unintentionally irritated you. Let's get over it shall we?

Mike Hulme: I think patents are worthwhile if you want to make money with an invention but that's not my motivation. Besides it's a long process and these inventions are still mostly on the level of ideas.


Samppa

[islander]

I've actually been wondering for some time about the feasibility of extending the chanter's range below the D as well. The leading tone is such a powerful note on Scottish pipes. On the uilleann pipes my solution is generally to just play the tune in A. But what if the concert chanter was lengthened so that the lowest note was a C, but with an added D hole below the two E holes. The D hole could be covered by a key which is released when the chanter is taken off the knee - there could be a thin ring at the mouth of the chanter (or maybe just a popping valve with a key attachment) which pops open when lifted, lifting this keypad over the D hole as well. And then there could be an additional key activated by the right thumb which then re-closes the D hole to get the bottom C with the lifted chanter. I think this setup would allow you to leave the bore from D to D unchanged, just adding a bit at the end for the C, and I think it would also let you retain the "bottom D" tonal color for the most part, while still having something that looks mostly like your average uilleann pipe.

Another possibility would be to just have a standard key to open the D hole, and maybe even some more notes below it, maybe a key for C as well if the bell note is a B… you could keep adding keys for lower and lower notes like on the Northumbrian pipes. Although this would require an altered technique and probably result in a less expressive D.

On the Piper's Choice DVD Paddy Keenan talks using the regs to extend the melodic range of the chanter, and this seems to me to be the most realistic option, as much as I'd like to play an extended Northumbrianized uilleann chanter I think the opportunities for using the regs as an extension of the chanter are great, and a way to innovate without changing anything about the pipes themselves.

Good luck with your experiments, you've got some really cool ideas. If you ever get into pipemaking let me know - those would be some wild pipes

Thanks for your reply Mdipiper!

The ideas sound like they could made to work if someone only made them work, I'm glad there are more of us The ring method seems to be a possibility and it is what uilleannfinlander also suggested to me yesterday evening.


Samppa

[Elmek]

Hmm...... an uilleann pipe chanter with a low c - sounds (no pun intended) a novel idea - perhaps a new name for a new instrument - propose it is called the pastoral pipe

For next week perhaps the wheel could be studied as circular may not be the most ideal shape

I recall reading either on this or the other forum that a ulleann chanter had been made that had a bottom c but cannot find the thread

John

[islander]

John, pastoral pipes have already been discussed about in this thread. These new design ideas are fundamentally different from the pastoral pipes as the bottom C (or C#) is only a temporary feature which is supposed to be turned on and off with the thumb while one is playing. It was also said (not by me) that the normal uilleann pipe staccato style of playing is still possible on these designs, which (I hear) isn't possible on the pastoral pipes. I have no first hand experience on the pastoral pipes myself.


Samppa

[pudinka]

Pudinka mentions the Taylor Bros. and if you know your history then you'll know that the debate flat-sets contra wide bore D-sets is still an issue for some. Anyway the Taylor Bros. innovations were conceived between the 1860's to round about 1892, more than 120 to 140 years ago. Basically they made a louder instrument, experimented with double bores in some cases, used solid stocks, I think?, and gave their pipes an art deco look, in style and materials, in keeping with the times. Otherwise their instruments were the same as the "traditional" flat sets with a fully keyed chanter, three drones, and usually three regulators.

Basically, I agree with this, but you've had 120-140 years to form your observation and have taken more than a minute or two to react in anger as many here have. Yes, they experimented with wider bores, multi-bore regs and shockingly - used solid stocks?!

But you also say that they "gave their pipes an art deco look*...in keeping with their times". I would expect that many players in their time were angry over this and ready to hand them a blind-fold and then a bullet for it for their "crazy" ideas - ready to burn their sets in a great bonfire for not looking traditional enough - never mind whatever else they might have done for the good - "keeping with their times" is not traditional. There would be no point in calling it traditional if it is in contrast to the current.

*my opinion again - I do not agree that their work is Art Deco, but closer to Modern - or somewhere between...the keywork, re-shaping of the bodies to work with the keys and the keys with the body (vs. a more traditional blocked key), the mechanics of the keys all work in the "form follows function" tennant of Modernism - which Modernists did not follow for long.

[MichaelLoos]

I have seen an old chanter one time (C#, possibly Egan IIRC) which had the possibility of playing low C# while maintaining all the characteristics of the UP chanter. The solution was comparatively simple but practical: a key opening a tiny hole just above the bottom of the chanter, thus sounding half a tone below bottom D.

[Steampacket]

"Basically, I agree with this, but you've had 120-140 years to form your observation and have taken more than a minute or two to react in anger as many here have. Yes, they experimented with wider bores, multi-bore regs and shockingly - used solid stocks?! " Pudinka.

Completely wrong there Pudinka I'm not that old. Islanders ideas haven't made me angry at all The Taylors made chanters in the old style before developing their new design, which was sensible, and thought out as they simply wanted to make an instrument that had more volume. The multi-bore regs were probably oneoffs, although they did make a few double-bored chanters it seems. Their pipes were compact, sturdy, simple, and practical, unlike Islander's mad ideas for a chanter.

"But you also say that they "gave their pipes an art deco look*...in keeping with their times". I would expect that many players in their time were angry over this and ready to hand them a blind-fold and then a bullet for it for their "crazy" ideas - ready to burn their sets in a great bonfire for not looking traditional enough - never mind whatever else they might have done for the good - "keeping with their times" is not traditional. There would be no point in calling it traditional if it is in contrast to the current." Pudinka.

Wrong again - The Taylors certainly had customers for their instruments, back in the day as they made thought out quality instruments, at least in the US amongst the pipers there, check out "Irish minstrels & musicians". Nothing wrong with innovation if it's feasible and good. Billy Taylor was by all accounts a very good musician, professional musicians such as Patsy Touhey played a Taylor set

"my opinion again - I do not agree that their work is Art Deco, but closer to Modern - or somewhere between...the keywork, re-shaping of the bodies to work with the keys and the keys with the body (vs. a more traditional blocked key), the mechanics of the keys all work in the "form follows function" tennant of Modernism - which Modernists did not follow for long." Pudinka

No, early Art Deco, they were before their time. Amazing craftsmen, a shame so little is known about them, no photos of Billie or Charlie as far as I know

[pudinka]

Completely wrong there Pudinka I'm not that old. Islanders ideas haven't made me angry at all

Completely there wrong, Steampacket...I was not referring to you or anyone in particular.

The Taylors made chanters in the old style before developing their new design, which was sensible, and thought out as they simply wanted to make an instrument that had more volume.

Yes, I imagine they started out more traditionally (I have seen only photos to say this) and they changed - there is the difference.

Wrong again - The Taylors certainly had customers for their instruments, back in the day as they made thought out quality instruments, at least in the US amongst the pipers there, check out "Irish minstrels & musicians". Nothing wrong with innovation if it's feasible and good. Billy Taylor was by all accounts a very good musician, professional musicians such as Patsy Touhey played a Taylor set

Wrong about what? I make no claims about the quality of their work no do not say that they were not in demand - I'd love to have one of their sets, in fact. I have that book too...

No, early Art Deco, they were before their time.

Yes, they were before their time, that is why I said pre-Modern. Find a book and compare the periods if you do not know the difference between Arts & Crafts, Art Nouveau, Art Deco and Modernism. To me, the Taylors were like Charles Rennie Macintosh, he did not really stand into any of these catagories, but he had his feet in all of them. I doubt that the Taylors cared about mere style and likely did what they wanted...but I was not there either.

[Uilliam]

to react in anger as many here have.

I only reacted in pain, not anger, frae falling aff ma stool...
Islander ye are free to dream awa to yer hearts content, awa ye go to Imagination Land
enjoy



ps I did not mean to impune yer playing ability as I have no idea whit it is like.. however everyone, bar none,least of all yersel, should not, not explore the full potential of the Irish Pipes for whit they are 1st, afore going aff on a tangent.That ma wee friend will take a lifetime...
Uilliam

[uilleannfinlander]

Colin Kyo makes fantastic GHB´s of laminated wood..both drones and chanters.Anybody knows such technique used with UP timbers ?

[Uilliam]

No but, I know a man who might incorporate that into his imagination




If'n ye look at Imagination Land above ye will see the three chanters adapted with sound boxes on top with the addition of clocks which ye can use as metronomes,the spirala allow ye to adjust the tone by simply twisting while ye play and tae get the lower C we have o course the plungers at the bottom o the chanters...

[islander]

Thanks Uilliam, I shall continue experimenting after that lifetime is over


Samppa

[Nanohedron]

No but, I know a man who might incorporate that into his imagination
If'n ye look at Imagination Land above ye will see the three chanters adapted with sound boxes on top with the addition of clocks which ye can use as metronomes,the spirala allow ye to adjust the tone by simply twisting while ye play and tae get the lower C we have o course the plungers at the bottom o the chanters...

Seems we're setting foot in the realm of NSPs, here.

[Uilliam]

Seems we're setting foot in the realm of NSPs, here.

Yep we sure are stepping into
New Suede Purple Shoes sounds kinda dream like which is appropriate
http://www.nsps.net/