Just wondering

[Nanohedron]

this Irish flute usage seems quite different in referring loosely to physical size (= smaller) rather than more precise pitch differences.

Nah. It's just an Irish agglomeration of "third" and "fourth" - not sure which/what it means, so go for both in one....

Actually, in this case I believe "three quarter" is conventionally intended to mean Eb pitch every time. In strictest physical terms this is of course an oddity of measurement, but I don't think mathematic justifiability was the first thing in mind. It's just a way of speaking about it.

[Cubitt]

Using flutes in different keys is extremely recent

So, since flutes have always, for practical purposes, been available in several keys, I can think of no reason why they wouldn't have been used. But your statement is direct and certain, Cubitt, so obviously you must have evidence. What is that evidence? Please cite it.

My pleasure. My understanding is that flute didn't become popular for ITM until around the 1920s. By that time, the Boehm flute had pretty much become the standard for orchestras and bands. Those of lesser means could now get an eight-key fairly cheaply and thus the instrument came into popular use for ITM. Since the vast majority of ITM is in D, G and the relative minors, and since the primary eight-key flutes available were in D, that seems to be the instrument mostly used. This is not to discount the fact that flutes in alternate keys were available. Prior to Matt Molloy employing his Eb flute, and occasionally a Bb, I had never heard a recording with anything other than a D flute for ITM (which is not to say there weren't any). Perhaps Kevin Krell can tell us if there are any on his Wooden Flute Obsession compilation. Or maybe you know.

Please let me know if any of the foregoing is incorrect. And if anyone took my statement to be a broader implication regarding the use of Eb flutes or others for anything other than ITM, my apologies for not being clearer.

[dunnp]

Nico mentioned Seamus tansey.
He's the balls. But anyway
Does anyone know which flutes hes using here
http://source.pipers.ie/Search/searchRe ... mus+tansey
Is it his early Rudall sans keys and Flatleys Olwell
Or is there another one here.

[dunnp]

Loads of 78 rpm era flute recordings seem to be in Eflat. Though this may be pitch shifting.

Anyway, I can admit to being nit picky here but Oneill, a flute player, published his collection in 1900 or there abouts. Scottish flute complilations and American flute compendiums full of dance tunes seem to always have been there. Perhaps the Irish didn't publish as much direct flute related material in Ireland but I suspect it was always there though not as hugely popular.
Most of our dance music is not as old as we'd like to think though.

Search the internet archive for flute and scotch airs or other similar terms you,ll be suprised what was there published.

[jiminos]

Using flutes in different keys is extremely recent

So, since flutes have always, for practical purposes, been available in several keys, I can think of no reason why they wouldn't have been used. But your statement is direct and certain, Cubitt, so obviously you must have evidence. What is that evidence? Please cite it.

My pleasure. My understanding is that flute didn't become popular for ITM until around the 1920s. By that time, the Boehm flute had pretty much become the standard for orchestras and bands. Those of lesser means could now get an eight-key fairly cheaply and thus the instrument came into popular use for ITM. Since the vast majority of ITM is in D, G and the relative minors, and since the primary eight-key flutes available were in D, that seems to be the instrument mostly used. This is not to discount the fact that flutes in alternate keys were available. Prior to Matt Molloy employing his Eb flute, and occasionally a Bb, I had never heard a recording with anything other than a D flute for ITM (which is not to say there weren't any). Perhaps Kevin Krell can tell us if there are any on his Wooden Flute Obsession compilation. Or maybe you know.

Please let me know if any of the foregoing is incorrect. And if anyone took my statement to be a broader implication regarding the use of Eb flutes or others for anything other than ITM, my apologies for not being clearer.

just on the face of this .... this seems more an explanation of how D flutes came to be common in ITM, not so much an explanation of how other keys were not used in ITM.... or, in other words.... you don't say whether flutes of other keys were in use or not in ITM prior to the introduction of all those non-Boehm flutes that fell from favor on the continent.... if correct, then you have not made the case that flutes of keys other than D are extremely new in ITM... you have only made the case that you, personally, are not aware of those other keyed flutes' presence in ITM....

... hopefully, i've read a tad more correctly this time

be well,

jim

[NicoMoreno]

Actually, in this case I believe "three quarter" is conventionally intended to mean Eb pitch every time.

My understanding was that it was intended to mean F every time. Eb might be called just a high flute. Seamus Tansey is the only reference I have to Eb being called a 3/4 flute. (I'm not writing it out in words every time, Jem ) Every other reference I've seen / heard, with sonic backup available, has been to an F flute. http://www.lafferty.ca/files/flute-geezers/packie1.mp3

My understanding is that flute didn't become popular for ITM until around the 1920s. By that time, the Boehm flute had pretty much become the standard for orchestras and bands.

Where'd you get this information from? It doesn't appear that you have any facts, just supposition and remembered history.

Hammy Hamilton has provided some information about the historical use of flutes, based on evidence, during the 1800s. You'd have to read his book or find his posts on C&F to get it first hand, I just remember that there is evidence of the use of flutes prior to recordings became available. In addition, the O'Farrell collection of irish music for union pipes (published 1804-1810) also states that they are suitable for violin, flute and flageolet. Other collections in the early 1800s also cite flute (sometimes "german flute"). Photos, written records all cite flute players. And finally, there are many flute recordings from the 78s era, and I think some from the wax cylinder era (I'd have to check my music library). Some of them on an F or E flute (and linked right above this discussion! viewtopic.php?f=2&t=53242&start=15)

I guess you might argue that that doesn't make them "popular", but at least flutes were used.

Edited to add:
I've read that the principal flute player of the London Symphony Orchestra played an 8-key flute up until his retirement in the 1970s. So Boehm didn't completely take over!

[Terry McGee]

this Irish flute usage seems quite different in referring loosely to physical size (= smaller) rather than more precise pitch differences.

Nah. It's just an Irish agglomeration of "third" and "fourth" - not sure which/what it means, so go for both in one....

Actually, in this case I believe "three quarter" is conventionally intended to mean Eb pitch every time. In strictest physical terms this is of course an oddity of measurement, but I don't think mathematic justifiability was the first thing in mind. It's just a way of speaking about it.

I wonder if the expression three quarter is taken from the fiddle world, a 3/4 violin being a useful thing for kids to learn on? I'd have though an F flute would be closer to 3/4 than an Eb, but mathematical precision is not something the Irish are renowned for. Can you see the Starship Enterprise with an engineer called Paddy?

Terry

[dunnp]

See my post above regarding flute being older than the twenties, I was editing as other people were posting.
I imagine your right Terry, 3/4 flute means F flute to me but who knows for the old timers. Anything smaller than d.
Though practice set in common now for the pipes, ive hear 1/4 set and other various combinations of fractions used to describe less than a full set.
Practice set is standard, 1/2, 3/4, what about aset with one or two drones.

[Peter Duggan]

I wonder if the expression three quarter is taken from the fiddle world, a 3/4 violin being a useful thing for kids to learn on?

I'd thought of that, but (perhaps prematurely) ruled it out because these little violins still play at standard violin pitch (apart from the violino piccolo used in the first Brandenburg etc., but that's not called '3/4 size'!).

[benhall.1]

mathematical precision is not something the Irish are renowned for. Can you see the Starship Enterprise with an engineer called Paddy?

Terry

Miles O'Brien worked as a transporter operator on the Enterprise before becoming Chief of Operations (an engineering role) on Deep Space Nine.

[NicoMoreno]

dunnp:
This one I think is in F: http://source.pipers.ie/Search/SearchRe ... ageSize=12
I'm not 100% sure though. When I saw him he had the other two (Rudall keyless and Shiny Flatley) and an Eb. It's definitely high, and sounds higher than Eb would be, but I haven't an F flute handy to check against (what with still being at work and all).

Also, the pipes issue is a different kettle of fish altogether. I think the violin size thing is similar, but I bet the flute designation is just a reference to it being about 3/4 the length of a D flute.

[Nanohedron]

Actually, in this case I believe "three quarter" is conventionally intended to mean Eb pitch every time.

My understanding was that it was intended to mean F every time. Eb might be called just a high flute. Seamus Tansey is the only reference I have to Eb being called a 3/4 flute. (I'm not writing it out in words every time, Jem ) Every other reference I've seen / heard, with sonic backup available, has been to an F flute. http://www.lafferty.ca/files/flute-geezers/packie1.mp3

Yeah, "three quarter" = Eb was just how the usage was around me whenever I heard it, which isn't to say that it was often at all (and I'm trying to remember what, if any, conception Vallely gave about it in his book); I do recall hearing claims of a lack of consensus about it all, too.

[benhall.1]

Actually, thinking about it, scientific rigour is not something that bearded, Australian flute-makers are renowned for.

I jest, of course. But I think you should think carefully, Terry, before applying negative stereotypes to races of people. There have been plenty of Irish engineers, mathematicians, scientists etc. I just looked up a whole list ...

[Nanohedron]

mathematical precision is not something the Irish are renowned for. Can you see the Starship Enterprise with an engineer called Paddy?

Terry

Miles O'Brien worked as a transporter operator on the Enterprise before becoming Chief of Operations (an engineering role) on Deep Space Nine.

Yeah, so neener neener.

[Peter Duggan]

This one I think is in F: http://source.pipers.ie/Search/SearchRe ... ageSize=12
I'm not 100% sure though.

Sounds like (concert) E played in A ('G fingering') and E ('D fingering') to me.

Also, the pipes issue is a different kettle of fish altogether.

Makes sense in describing a progressively fuller set, though.

I think the violin size thing is similar

So not really (one string, two strings, three strings, four)?

but I bet the flute designation is just a reference to it being about 3/4 the length of a D flute.

Think I'd bet on that too!