Generations - What's the problem?

Tommy · Post by **Tommy** » Wed Jan 03, 2007 5:43 pm

Hmmm....

BoneQuint · Post by **BoneQuint** » Wed Jan 03, 2007 5:52 pm

Peter Laban wrote:You have always maintained that Generations are out of tune.

Wanderer wrote:I've merely stated that the ones I've owned were inconsistently tuned. I still stand by that.

I have to admit, I'm having a hard time seeing much of a difference between the two statements. Maybe a little matter of degree, but in everyday usage, functionally equivalent to my ear. Please let me know if I'm missing something.

Post by **Dale** » Wed Jan 03, 2007 5:59 pm

It would be tempting to say that Chiff & Fipple (website, board, & newsletter) is responsible for the Alleged Generation Quality Control Problem. C&F may have helped maintain or broaden the idea, but the folklore, if that's what it is, predates C&F. I was hearing about this problem from players in the first year of C&F's existence. I have heard it, certainly, from as many good and experienced players as from new and weaker players. (I myself am, I guess, an experienced bad player.)

I tend to believe that this is said of Generations so often that there must be SOMETHING to it, although I'm more than happy to concede that the problem may be exaggerated.

By the way, about five years ago I wrote the Generation people and asked to communicate with them about this issue. I got a reply back that thanked me for my letter--said something to make it clear to me that they had actually read it--and included a promise to get back to me on it. They didn't get back to me on it.

Coincidentally, I just got some 2nd hand information about this whole issue just today. I want to try to catch up with the original source and get his straight story and his permission to share.

Wanderer · Post by **Wanderer** » Wed Jan 03, 2007 6:03 pm

BoneQuint wrote:
Peter Laban wrote:You have always maintained that Generations are out of tune.

Wanderer wrote:I've merely stated that the ones I've owned were inconsistently tuned. I still stand by that.
I have to admit, I'm having a hard time seeing much of a difference between the two statements. Maybe a little matter of degree, but in everyday usage, functionally equivalent to my ear. Please let me know if I'm missing something.

I bought a box of 10 generations. I performed a test where I blew them all with as similar breath as I could muster, and measured the results read off of my tuner. Some of them came out sharp on some notes. Others came out flat on those same notes. I recall most of them could be brought into tune with changes in breath, but each whistle required something different to bring it into tune. I can remember at least one of them could not be brought into tune with any measure of breath gymnastics. I posted the results about two different board incarnations ago, and it has been lost to time. I was willing to conceed at the time that perhaps I got the worst of the lot..some shop's leftovers or something, but regardless, there was no denying the inconsistency across them. I have never opted to speak for any other whistles other than those I have handled personally.

I have explained this before, in many of these same "generation" themed threads. I have also stated in the past that perhaps generations have gained in quality, as in recent years there seem to be less tuning complaints. I have not had an opportunity to repeat the test.

I do not see how the above equates to "generations are out of tune." The worst I have ever said was that they were inconsistent, and that some of them are bad, and some of them are good. It seems like every time I do, Peter is there to mischaracterize what I've written and try and make it sound like I'm kicking dirt in the face of all generation players. It's grown more than annoying over the years, especially since for the most part, we agree: you have to pick and choose your whistle.

Azalin · Post by **Azalin** » Wed Jan 03, 2007 6:11 pm

peeplj wrote:Seems like an amazing amount of frustration is showing on all sides here.

These are just whistles, folks.

Relax. Play tunes. Drink something (alcoholic or not). Take a nap. Take a walk. Pet your dog.

--James

Ahhh remember James when *we* used to have those fights on the whistle board. Things have changed now. That is, now I know that *all* whistles suck, no matter what.

Just jokin' of course, kinda, if only I would have been patient enough to become a real good player on the whistle before switching instrument.

BoneQuint · Post by **BoneQuint** » Wed Jan 03, 2007 6:23 pm

Wanderer wrote:I do not see how the above equates to "generations are out of tune."

Well, I guess from a practical point of view, if I read that a good proportion of Generations are somewhat off-tune, and a few are so bad they can't be played in tune at all, I'd have to look at any single Generation suspiciously. After all, if the tuning varied randomly, at least some would happen to be relatively close, which matches your story. So I think you can see how people would take from what you've written that you feel Generations are likely to be out of tune.

walrii · Post by **walrii** » Wed Jan 03, 2007 6:55 pm

Dale wrote:By the way, about five years ago I wrote the Generation people and asked to communicate with them about this issue. I got a reply back that thanked me for my letter--said something to make it clear to me that they had actually read it--and included a promise to get back to me on it. They didn't get back to me on it.

My attempt (see my post above) also came to naught. The email I sent got kicked back as "fatal delivery error" or some such.

Tommy · Post by **Tommy** » Wed Jan 03, 2007 7:33 pm

Could it be they are still upset about the tea party, and they give the better whistles to the kids of Irland?

Wanderer · Post by **Wanderer** » Wed Jan 03, 2007 8:24 pm

BoneQuint wrote:
Wanderer wrote:I do not see how the above equates to "generations are out of tune."
Well, I guess from a practical point of view, if I read that a good proportion of Generations are somewhat off-tune, and a few are so bad they can't be played in tune at all, I'd have to look at any single Generation suspiciously. After all, if the tuning varied randomly, at least some would happen to be relatively close, which matches your story. So I think you can see how people would take from what you've written that you feel Generations are likely to be out of tune.

I can see that too. I do try to make it clear, when this comes up, that I do not think generations are LIKELY to be completely out of tune. I don't. I think it's possible some are. I think it's possible that some can be played in tune, but with such difficulty that it would put off all but the experienced player. I also think some are probably magical gems right from the factory, if you're into that traditional tone.

My experience, and Peter's too, it seems, shows that they vary at least in tonal qualities. Is it so far a stretch to think they might have small variations in tuning as well? That's really all I've ever tried to make a point of. Really. Just to keep open the idea that if someone is complaining about their Generation that perhaps, just perhaps, it really is the whistle.

emtor · Post by **emtor** » Thu Jan 04, 2007 3:28 am

Below are images and soundfiles of three different Gens.
A vintage Gen D,
a pre 1980's Gen D,
and a current Gen D purchased a few days ago.

http://vargaswhistles.com/Temp/vintage_Gen.mp3

http://vargaswhistles.com/Temp/pre-1980's_Gen.mp3

http://vargaswhistles.com/Temp/current_Gen.mp3

The vintage and the pre 1980's Gen both sound very nice, and the current Gen isn't all that bad either, although it has a tendency towards being a bit scratchy in the second octave.
Also, the current Gen's second octave seems slightly flat compared to the other two.
The slight flaw associated with the current Gen in this particular case probably has nothing to do with poor quality control, it is a matter of design.

Below is an image of the pre 1980's Gen and of the current Gen placed side by side.
The current one is on the left, and the pre 1980's is on the right side.

If you look through the windway you'll see that the edge of the lip is located much higher in the current Gen. (left)
All the current Gens I've come across have their lips located more or less like this one.

My experience is, that the vertical location of the lip related to the windway-exit controls the tendency towards scratchiness in the second octave.
Unfortunately I don't own more than one pre 1980's Gen, so I have no idea wether this specimen is a so called "gem" or not.
If it is representative of most other pre 1980's Gens, then it is pretty clear to me that Generation mouthpieces has undergone a design change which is in my opinion for the worse.

Cayden · Post by **Cayden** » Thu Jan 04, 2007 4:50 am

Your photo of the pre 80s Gen is a bit compressed which obscures the difference in width of the window. The new design widened the window and broadened the windway slightly. They gained volume and a small degree of clarity that way but lost most of the sweetness of the older design, as well as adding other issues. This is not to suggest all old designs were great, they were variable like the present, you still wanted to go out and pick the nicest of the batch.

emtor · Post by **emtor** » Thu Jan 04, 2007 5:21 am

they were variable like the present, you still wanted to go out and pick the nicest of the batch

That makes sense, since mass-production will always result in a slightly varying quality. Even very expensive musical instruments have a variation in quality from one specimen to the other . . . maybe Barnes and Mullins is doing a decent job after all?

peeplj · Post by **peeplj** » Thu Jan 04, 2007 6:51 am

Azalin wrote:
peeplj wrote:Seems like an amazing amount of frustration is showing on all sides here.

These are just whistles, folks.

Relax. Play tunes. Drink something (alcoholic or not). Take a nap. Take a walk. Pet your dog.

--James
Ahhh remember James when *we* used to have those fights on the whistle board. Things have changed now. That is, now I know that *all* whistles suck, no matter what.

Just jokin' of course, kinda, if only I would have been patient enough to become a real good player on the whistle before switching instrument.

Oh I've been in no lack of bitter exchanges on the whistle board...which is maybe why this is a little painful to watch.

There are passionate folks on both sides of this one; I know from experience that passion feels good to the writer but almost never actually pursuedes the reader of anything.

--James

PhilO · Post by **PhilO** » Thu Jan 04, 2007 8:05 am

I guess though, it's sort of positive James that such passion can be aroused by a seven or eight buck whistle as opposed to say, fast dames or cars or millions of dollars?

Philo

Ostrich Caller · Post by **Ostrich Caller** » Thu Jan 04, 2007 8:32 am

[/quote]
There are passionate folks on both sides of this one; I know from experience that passion feels good to the writer but almost never actually pursuedes the reader of anything.
[/quote]

However, it does give us beginners a knowledge base that would take years to learn on our own. Thanks for the thread!

Remember, whistles don't kill people, r*c*rd*rs .... (sorry, couldn't resist)