Publishing RTTA results?

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Jack Bradshaw
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Post by Jack Bradshaw »

daiv wrote:
Jack Bradshaw wrote:That's a minimum all right......and widely used for minimum usable bandwidth........but if you are going to be shifting things around, you want some overspecification so you don't introduce artifacts.....

You can also hear the difference in transients (clicks, etc) well above "audio".

So it's more of a "firm believer in overkill approach"...... :D
haha, thats an understatement. i have no idea if that software goes that high. i hope it would!
Anything running the AD7851 chip should be fine...
http://www.analog.com/en/analog-to-digi ... oduct.html
Unfortunatley when I look at audio units, they tend to spec in terms of 44.1 or 48KHz.....hard to tell how much they overkill internally......they tend to resolve 24 bits these days (Beringer seems to claim 64 or 128 times oversample, but I can't be sure of what they mean these days)
In any event, they can software down to 44.1 @ 24 bits.
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same results every time is insanity: I've almost proved it isn't;
only a few more tests now and I'm sure results will differ this time ... "
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Cork
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Post by Cork »

Carey wrote:...We'll have to see if "fixing" a flute throws the baby out with the bath water.
While the RTTA technology apparently could lead to better internal tuning, it doesn't seem likely that an "improved" flute could be all that much different than what we already have, but could simply have better tuning. That is, perhaps RTTA could lead to more minor tweaks, but not a radical overhaul.

As it now stands, a player generally has control over three things, tuning, volume, and tone, and by reducing the tuning aspect, the player still retains control over volume, and tone. In that sense, moreover, nothing seems to be lost, and a greater freedom seems to be gained.
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Carey
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Post by Carey »

I agree. That's why "fixing" was in quotes. Some people assume that with RTTA we'll aim for a flat line when in fact we might find something else to aim at. The cool part is being able to see what it is that I've made!
When there's a huge spill of solar energy, it's just called a nice day.

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Jon C.
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Post by Jon C. »

Hey Jack,
Is there something out there to read more of the standing waves and harmonics, that produce a rich tone, such as the classics have, lie R&R? Why is it that some flutes seem boring to play? I find that I reach for a Rudall over say a Pratten design. I think this goes beyond the realm of tuning. I have tried to wade through some of Benade's class notes, should have been a better student in math, instead of ditching and going surfing!
I do have a old oscilloscope that is in the lower hertz range, that might be able to capture some of the harmonics.
Where is Nelson the rocket scientist when I need him?
the other question; when are those concrete flutes going to be finished? :)
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Jack Bradshaw
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Post by Jack Bradshaw »

Helmholtz is probably the best reference......a good read...all kinds of little gems in there

I like (prefer) the Rudall sound myself......

Benade's notes are great for bore tweaking....

:lol: ..once I get a decent foot the rest is easy !

Edit: oh...the old ossiliscope is best setup to display as an X-Y pattern generator w/ the reference freq on one axis and the signal on the other (did my thesis w/ that kind of setup in the dark ages...before computers)

Edit again: you can use a tape loop to keep the signal going while you play w/ the reference
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"I fail to see why doing the same thing over and over and getting the
same results every time is insanity: I've almost proved it isn't;
only a few more tests now and I'm sure results will differ this time ... "
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Post by Cork »

Speaking of RTTA, what of the stability of the flute material?

For instance, if RTTA could refine a flute's tuning, in terms of a flute's specific dimensions, then perhaps some flute materials could be quantitatively determined to retain their dimensions better than some other materials, over time.

That is, perhaps some woods could be inherently better, or more stable, than some other woods, not to mention the processing of the wood, etc.

And then, could wood ultimately be the best flute material, in terms of dimensional stability?
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daiv
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Post by daiv »

Jon C. wrote:Hey Jack,
Is there something out there to read more of the standing waves and harmonics, that produce a rich tone, such as the classics have, lie R&R? Why is it that some flutes seem boring to play? I find that I reach for a Rudall over say a Pratten design. I think this goes beyond the realm of tuning. I have tried to wade through some of Benade's class notes, should have been a better student in math, instead of ditching and going surfing!
I do have a old oscilloscope that is in the lower hertz range, that might be able to capture some of the harmonics.
Where is Nelson the rocket scientist when I need him?
the other question; when are those concrete flutes going to be finished? :)
the software i posted on the previous page, jon, will show the harmonics. it will do a fourier analysis, showing you all pitches that compose the tone, as well as their relative amplitude.
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Post by Denny »

Jack Bradshaw wrote:(did my thesis w/ that kind of setup in the dark ages...before computers)
Now Jack,
they had those analog jobbies
with the servos back then...
Last edited by Denny on Sat Aug 16, 2008 7:18 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by daiv »

jack and jon: i never posted the link. here is what i had meant to post on the previous page:
http://www.virtins.com/

what do you think about this one, jack?
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Jack Bradshaw
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Post by Jack Bradshaw »

Denny wrote:
Jack Bradshaw wrote:(did my thesis w/ that kind of setup in the dark ages...before computers)
Now Jack,
they had those analog jobbies
with the servos back then...
Ya Ya ...they did...w/ plugin dual 12AT7 op amps.....but the ol' "eyeball integrator" was always better.....used 2 oscillators (one for each hand ) while staring at a "bowtie" pattern...then locked and turned around to read the two "nixie tube" counters behind me...lotsa fun...
603/329-7322
"I fail to see why doing the same thing over and over and getting the
same results every time is insanity: I've almost proved it isn't;
only a few more tests now and I'm sure results will differ this time ... "
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Jack Bradshaw
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Post by Jack Bradshaw »

daiv wrote:jack and jon: i never posted the link. here is what i had meant to post on the previous page:
http://www.virtins.com/

what do you think about this one, jack?
Looks good in the ads...96KHz w/ 24 bits......does all the software tricks.....you do need to go and buy a suitable 24bit A/D.....and what software may come w/ it ??
603/329-7322
"I fail to see why doing the same thing over and over and getting the
same results every time is insanity: I've almost proved it isn't;
only a few more tests now and I'm sure results will differ this time ... "
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Jack Bradshaw
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Post by Jack Bradshaw »

Here's an interesting freebie to play around with..
http://www.zeitnitz.de/Christian/Scope/Scope_en.html

How far OT have we gotten anyway ?
603/329-7322
"I fail to see why doing the same thing over and over and getting the
same results every time is insanity: I've almost proved it isn't;
only a few more tests now and I'm sure results will differ this time ... "
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daiv
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Post by daiv »

Jack Bradshaw wrote:Here's an interesting freebie to play around with..
http://www.zeitnitz.de/Christian/Scope/Scope_en.html

How far OT have we gotten anyway ?
well, for a seven page thread about a tuning analysis software, and we are talking about other tuning analysis software, i think we are in pretty good shape.

but, we could drift if you like! did anyone see how close ms. torres was from getting the gold just the other day?
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Jon C.
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Post by Jon C. »

Jack Bradshaw wrote:Here's an interesting freebie to play around with..
http://www.zeitnitz.de/Christian/Scope/Scope_en.html

How far OT have we gotten anyway ?
I downloaded the scope program Jack, it works great. Now I just have to figure out what I am seeing... There does seem to be a different wave form for the Rudall and the Firth, hall and Pond. The Rudall has more harmonics in the wave, then the FH&P, which still has a tonal appeal. I really need to check it on a really boring flute, and see how they match up...
It's fun to highjack threads... :twisted:
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Post by groxburgh »

Jon C. wrote: It's fun to highjack threads...
Given that the original thread was about whether we "allow" posting of data that some software was producing and you're still discussing software for analysing a flute I don't think you've strayed all that far even if it is boring.

Make sure when you start to analyze tone that you're studying the flute body and the headjoint separately. You need to be swapping headjoints on different bodies, - you know why already. The fact that some "Rudall" flutes have a more "interesting" tone and also have more tuning issues does not mean there is any cause and effect happening, more research is needed and RTTA will help with analysing tuning while other software will help with analysing tone.

Given that my 1832 Hill/Monzani has the best tone (to me) of any flute I've played and the best tuning (by my definition) I'm guessing it's possible to have the best of both.

Cheers
Graeme
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