What's with Eb whistles?

[tstermitz]

Most ITM music keys fit on the D or maybe C whistle. Can someone explain why Eb whistles are somewhat popular for some musicians?

[pancelticpiper]

Remember that the idea of certain pitches or keys being "correct" is relatively recent, and still doesn't hold much import for trad players.

In the old days uilleann pipes were often around B, or C, or halfway between B and C, or around C#, or whatever. There was no notion of building them to an outside pitch standard, evidently.

So the tunes that come out in the key of D on a modern D set would come out in B or C or C# or whatever.

Likewise with flutes, orchestral flutes were usually built to Old Philharmonic Pitch, A=452, so that the flute we call a "D flute" in Irish music would be halfway between D and Eb.

And marching band flutes and military flutes were usually built not to D, but to Eb, also at A=452 so in reality halfway between Eb and E natural.

Fiddles you can tune anywhere. In Appalachia it was common for fiddles to tune rather sharp of modern tuning.

So, you would have Irish music performed at all sorts of pitches in the old days. There seemed to be no notion of D or any other key or pitch being "correct".

I don't know about 18th and 19th century whistle pitches, but it seems that for a long time Generation whistles were made in pairs a fourth apart, Bb/Eb, C/F, D/G. A whistleplayer would pick up whichever whistle he fancied and play, not having a notion of what pitches were coming out.

Anyhow with all the old band flutes in Eb and some uilleann pipes being north of D there might be plenty of use for an Eb whistle in group settings. (Of course the idea of huge sessions with everyone playing together is perhaps rather recent.)

Matt Molloy's first album was mostly on an Eb flute, and some Irish trad groups have been entirely pitched a half-step up. You would need an Eb whistle to play along with those albums.

Group playing aside, there's an old feeling that Eb flutes and whistle tend to play better than their D counterparts. I know from personal experience that this is often true with flutes.

[sfmans]

There's also the school of thought that suggests that tunes sound 'brighter' on an Eb whistle, whilst remaining within the familiar compass that the listener would expect from the same tune played on a D whistle.

Bb / Eb sessions are also currently a fad in English music sessions; whether that's for tonal reasons or just to exclude the mass ranks of D / G melodeons, I couldn't possibly comment!

[Mr.Gumby]

And, as one well known fluteplayer said, 'they keep out the riff-raff'..




But seriously, there no easier playing, more agile and bright whistle than a Generation Eflat (or A Killarney E flat).

[tstermitz]

I always appreciate historical commentary, and Richard's ideas make sense.

But, the custom whistle makers are pretty much in the past 20 years or so, which is more in my personal memories rather than the dustbins of history.

In any case, current musicians also seem to be choosing Eb whistes. I guess Mary Bergin plays one.

I have no answers; just questions.

[colomon]

But, the custom whistle makers are pretty much in the past 20 years or so, which is more in my personal memories rather than the dustbins of history.

Not sure what you're trying to get at here? Mary Bergin recorded on an Eb whistle back in 1979 -- presumably a Generation.

[s1m0n]

Most ITM music keys fit on the D or maybe C whistle. Can someone explain why Eb whistles are somewhat popular for some musicians?

For most of it's history the tin whistle wasn't an especially Irish instrument.

[tstermitz]

Everybody seems to be talking theoretically rather than from experience. Maybe I should rephrase the question: "Why do you have an Eb whistle?"

I mean, the C whistle is useful at a session when they play Tam Lin (Yeah, I know), which needs Dmin. But, I could pick up a Generation C or else head to the bar for another pint.

Are there any really dark feeling Irish tunes in C#minor?

Maybe you are playing some Mozart?

[Mr.Gumby]

Everybody seems to be talking theoretically rather than from experience.

No I wasn't. Far from it thank you.

Imagine you're the one approaching this from a theoretical viewpoint: the notion that all Irish tunes will fit the key of D where in reality many pipers play instruments in Bflat, B, C, C sharp, flute players and whistle players have their own preferences from Kieran Collins sticking with the C whistle a lot of the time to the multitudes who at times go for the brightness and agility of the e flat whistle. Then there's the concertina players who are no stranger to playing in different keys, either by changing the key they play a tune in or by changing to instruments of different pitches.

And there are many examples of fiddle players of the previous generations (I nearly said 'older fiddle players' but realised a lot of the people I was thinking of are now dead) who either playd their tunes in different keys or tuned their fiddles one or two semitones below concert pitch. Or both at the same time. Do we need mention Frankie Gavin and Tommy Peoples, just to name two, who used to tune up a semi tone?

Key is a very relative thing. And as I said, the e flat Generation (type) whistle is a joy to play or to hear so it's an obvious choice for players.

[ytliek]

Either you have one or you don't. IMHO some tunes tweet nicely on an Eb.

[Nanohedron]

Everybody seems to be talking theoretically rather than from experience. Maybe I should rephrase the question: "Why do you have an Eb whistle?"

I mean, the C whistle is useful at a session when they play Tam Lin (Yeah, I know), which needs Dmin. But, I could pick up a Generation C or else head to the bar for another pint.

Are there any really dark feeling Irish tunes in C#minor?

Maybe you are playing some Mozart?

I think you're missing the point here. While sessions tend to establish predictable conventions for keys for certain tunes when playing anywhere, the fact is that conventions are only that, not sacred cows. You could Play Tam Lin in any key, on any whistle you like. With an Eb whistle you could thus play Tam Lin in Fm, and why would that be wrong? You don't play an Eb only because there might be tunes composed in that compass; you play it for the pitch effect it offers for all tunes transposed to it. And also to accompany singers more comfortable in that compass.

It's already been established that Eb playing is a matter of taste and, in the case of sessions, agreement. I own an Eb whistle and an Eb flute. Yes, opportunities to play with others in that pitch are not nearly as available as in standard session pitch, but at least one is then prepared, because it's a wonderful pitch to play in when you do. You'd be surprised at the difference a simple half step makes on the overall effect.

Of course trying to insert an Eb whistle in a standard session would be folly. But who would do that? Conventionally speaking, it should be for Eb sessions or for performance whether in group or solo. When playing solo for dancers I always play the Eb flute, and if there were a fiddler on hand I'd have zero problem urging them to tune up a half step.

And by the way, C sessions are also great.

[An Draighean]

"Why do you have an Eb whistle?"

Because it's handy to have whistles in different keys, and you never know when you might want or need one. A Generation Eb whistle is not a large investment.

[Feadoggie]

Are there any really dark feeling Irish tunes in C#minor?

Uuuuummmm??? C#min huh??? I shouldn't need an Eb whistle for that tune anyway. Wouldn't you want an E whistle or maybe an A whistle for that key? C# minor being the relative minor to E major and all. Now for C minor .... Do I have that right?

It's all relative anyway. Right?

"Why do you have an Eb whistle?"

Because one can run into folks playing in Eb, pure and simple, for what ever reason they do. And the reasons already given have merit in my experience.

And when you accompany singers you never know what key they will want to sing. Best to have a full quiver of arrows before going into battle.

And as has been said whistles are used for music beyond Irish session music. Lots of Eb and Bb music out there.

Oh, and welcome to C&F. Hope you enjoy the atmosphere here.

Feadoggie

[pancelticpiper]

Everybody seems to be talking theoretically rather than from experience.

No theories, just over 35 years experience. I discussed the historical background to try to dispel the idea that Irish music has certain "correct" keys or pitches.

Maybe I should rephrase the question: "Why do you have an Eb whistle?"

Myself, because I never know what key I'll need to play in. I have whistles in every key, in a big roll I take to every gig. I had one gig where everything required either the Eb, or the E. I have Low Whistles in both keys, that's what I used.

Very common to need to play in three or four flats, which the Eb whistle does.

For many gigs, church gigs and the like, I mostly use three whistles Eb, D, and C. Next is E and/or Bb usually. Had a gig recently where I needed the C#/Db whistle.

the C whistle is useful at a session when they play Tam Lin (Yeah, I know), which needs Dmin.

I play that tune on a mezzo G whistle, if the people are playing it in D minor. Mezzo A whistle if they're playing it in E minor (I encountered that at least once).

Are there any really dark feeling Irish tunes in C#minor?

Any minor tune is in C# minor if you play it in that key. I have a Gb whistle and any tune which comes out in A dorian on a D whistle comes out in Db dorian.

[Byll]

I find that the higher than D whistles either grate on my ears, or sound very sweet and birdlike. I have never felt the need for an Eb, because my Bb takes care of the need. Purely economic reasoning, I suppose. However, the band plays music by a writer who loves to write in E. We tried moving things down a step, but something is lost in the transposition. Ergo, while i have never purchased an Eb whistle, I certainly have a high E among the small number of whistles I have retained, over the years. In all honesty, I marvel at just how wonderful that whistle sounds…

Cheers.
Byll